Stream Entry

So, this is probably the only place where I would feel somewhat comfortable asking the following question, firstly, and secondly be confident that it will be taken sincerely and given straight answers.

Since the start of 2011 I've walked around with the idea that, maybe, I've stumbled onto stream entry, without actually much in the way of meditation experience or skill (there's a little more about my background in my introduction thread kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/4744384/Hi+all+%3A%29 ). Every single description I've read or heard about it seems to fit, except for aspects of it that I can't verify or disprove. Which would be, obviously, any references to reincarnation, and also any references to sensations or experiences that are only discernable to meditators who've been at it for a while (with the necessary discipline/continuity).

What has kept me unsure of this is a couple of things. First of all, while I would say that my understanding so far is deep and not merely conceptual, there is the saying that "understanding is not realization, realization is not liberation". So I'm not sure where that puts me, nor am I sure where that would put any stream-enterer. Second, I've noticed attachment to the idea. Or rather, resistance to the possibility that I may not at all have reached stream entry. This means I can't really trust my own estimation if it depends on how to interpret various descriptions of it. Note, I'm quite sure of what I have and don't have, so to speak, I'm just not sure if this is that which is traditionally referred to stream entry.

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So, shortly after I joined this forum and posted the above mentioned introduction thread, I found a reference somewhere on this forum to Ruthless Truth. I've been hanging out there for a couple of weeks and trying to get "liberated" (in their terms) by them. One effect of that was that I got convinced that I'm in fact not "liberated", and that whatever I had was "merely" understanding. Because, I might not believe in a self at all anymore, but how could I be "liberated" if there are still occasions where the sense of self can be such a gripping influence on my behaviour, and I can still be in such moods (and it *feels* like "I" am in that mood even though I know fundamentally there's no "I" here)?

But just now, I was listening to the following mp3 (don't remember where I found this link, it's been sitting on my harddrive for a while):

dharmaseed.org/teacher/334/talk/7893/199..._loving_kindness.mp3

And again her description of a stream enterer seems to fit very well, and one thing in particular struck me. Which was when she said that a stream enterer no longer has the view of self, but still has the feeling of self. Well, however indictative that may or may not be of stream entry, I can confidently say, that is where I'm at.

So my question is, how do I find out whether or not where I'm at is in fact that which is referred to as stream entry, and perhaps more importantly: How important is it that I find this out? For example, how would/should it affect my choice in practice (nonetheless keeping in mind that my meditation skills are pretty low), etc.?

Hey Mark,

I haven't read your journal so I apologize if this was already posted there, but I would ask what was the experience that led you to believe you had achieved stream entry or was it certain characteristics of your experience that seemed similar. There seems to be some degree of variability, but the experience of stream entry was quite intense for me as was the experience that followed. It was obvious that there had been some sort of shift. I would ask to what your experience has been since then? Any other noticeable shifts? I would suggest working with a teacher who can verify for you whether or not this was stream entry. I was doing a lot of out-loud noting and metta which led to stream entry, so that continued to be my consistent mode of practice during 1st, 2nd and part of 3rd path. It seemed to bring a quick progression so I do believe to some extent different modes of practice are more useful at some times than others. I do not know how important it is that you find this out as continued practice or awareness would seem to move you along anyway, but learning where you're at and reading others experience may help with some of the challenges of that particular stage. A more important question for me at this point is: Am I suffering now? If so, what am I holding onto? But I totally understand the desire to find out.

Bill

Well, I don't have a journal, and it wasn't any experience that first made me consider the possibility that I might have stream entry. Note, at the time, I had never heard of the progress of insight or what the transition is supposed to be like. Most of what I knew about meditation was from Shinzen Young, and fairly limited first-hand experience. And my practice was fairly ad-hoc, and more reminiscent of zen than vipassana. But I started noticing substantial differences in the way I look at things, what people are doing to themselves, what I've been doing to myself (and still am, albeit to a somewhat lesser extent).

I started noticing that what "guru's" and teachers were talking about suddenly made undeniable down-to-earth sense, in ways that I previously would definately have dismissed as meaningless nonsense. I noticed that the one description of stream entry that I knew of at that time (by Shinzen), seemed to apply to me, even though I had read it a couple of times before and it never occured to me before. So when I looked for more descriptions, as well as more guru talk, it only seemed to confirm more and more.

But most importantly, with time, I noticed consistent changes in how I respond to things. I'm incomparably more confident. I'm often more clear in my thinking and more centered in my being. I see much more of how my ego motivates certain impulses. I get a lot less caught in emotional spirals, or if I do, I know it for what it is and I come out of it a lot sooner than I would have before. I'm usually aware of my "persona" at any given moment. People respond to me differently (in a positive way), and there's an unexpected and deep connection with the (then 9-month-old) child of my closest friends.

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And those same friends have also repeatedly commented on how patient I am and how well I seem to handle things nowadays, most recently when I became unemployed, losing the first job I've ever had that I would really have preferred to keep. I don't often feel startled, insulted, worried, frightened, etc. Or if I do it's again only briefly. Also my brother has repeatedly commented on how impressed he is with the way things are going lately, and coming from my brother, that is saying something. He even joked that if mom would still be alive, she'd be surprised to see that nowadays I'm the more sensible one.

And, I laugh a lot in situations where I see my folly. And yeah, no more attachment to ritual, no more skeptical doubt, no more identity view. Now I don't know if any of this is conclusive, and I'm very wary of what is called confirmation bias. I know how easy it is to fool myself. But I do know that all of the above changes happened in fairly short order, in retrospect around the same time as the below mentioned "bliss" episode, and I don't know what else might explain them.

The experience that I think of in retrospect as what seems like a plausible candidate for the exact moment of transition, is the one that I briefly describe at both these following links, and marked in both descriptions with the word "bliss" (and which I find all the more plausible now that I know how Ciaran from Ruthless Truth came to be "liberated", to use his term, as might be clear from the second of these two links). Although at the time I figured it was just some kind of "meditation experience", even though it wasn't on the cushion.

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/4744384/Hi+all+%3A%29

www.ruthlesstruth.com/arena/viewtopic.ph...1446&start=30#p31018

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Hey Mark,

Thanks for sharing some of your practice details. I checked out your journals. It sound to me quite a bit more like A&P in terms of the feelings of bliss and the sense that dharma books now made sense when before they would have made none. If you have hit stream entry there also seems to be a fairly predictable spike in concentration level, followed by repeatedly moving through a rapidly changing cycle of thoughts/feelings/body sensations. You wrote too that you don't have a lot of meditation experience and it seems unlikely that you would have hit stream entry without consistent practice over a period of time. There is often a gap that occurs along with A&P that can be confused with a fruition, so this may be what your referencing by sayng you "blipped" into the blissful state. But, who knows. I may be wrong. That is why I'd suggest checking with others or your teacher or getting a teacher who has some awareness of stages and can help you along whatever stage you may be at. What seems truly important to me is that you have seen all these positive changes in your life and you are committed to continuing. You listed quite a few positive changes and that's awesome and seems more important to me than attaining path. All of the positive changes you listed did not happen for me at SE, but it seems that something good is going on in your life and that is something to be grateful for.

Bill

Yeah, and grateful I am in any case . Thanks for your replies so far, Bill. And yeah I know it probably doesn't occur very often in this way. But from my individual perspective, statistics are just statistics, they don't tell me anything about me. I honestly don't know what that "bliss episode" represents. As said, it's only my best guess in retrospect as to what might have been the actual moment of transition to stream entry, if indeed that's where I'm at.

But obviously, whatever exactly are the distinguishing characteristics of a stream enterer as defined in that particular model, would not match with individuals who have only crossed A&P in the same model. So the question rather becomes, regardless of what marks the point where I crossed A&P or where that "bliss episode" fits in, and also regardless of your own individual history, do you (or anyone) see a mismatch here between those distinguishing characteristics of a stream enterer and myself (if you'll excuse the obviously incorrect language)? Because as indicated, if there is a mismatch, I have yet to find it.

Another question might be how much sense it truely makes to draw these comparisons. Because as also indicated, my practice wasn't exactly straight hard-core vipassana technique, it was more of a freestyle mix and probably closer to Zen, and not restricted to the cushion at all.

Anyway thanks again for your advice. I understand it ultimately doesn't matter what to call it, and what's most important is the reality of how it impacts life. And in this sense, I have to say I'm also starting to appreciate the Zen perspective on this more and more. And it bears remembering that no map is ever the territory. Nonetheless, some external reference often comes in handy in avoiding further delusion, and possibly to adjust ones practice accordingly.

By the way there may have been a spike in concentration, I actually spent the rest of that day doing my activities (walking, preparing food, eating, etc) and non-activities (didn't do much else) with a sense of meditation. Because at the time I figured it to be just some kind of undefined "meditative experience" (I didn't know anything about maps and models), and I wanted to use it to boost my practice.

I also know I've had a decent period of what felt like relatively solid present-moment awareness around that time, but it certainly has weakened since then. I've never been consistently disciplined in my practice (although more disciplined than I've ever been with anything else). But it's difficult to say exactly how my concentration and mindfulness these days compares to, say, a year ago.

As for gaps and blips, I'm not sure I would have enough skill to discern that, unless perhaps if I was paying attention to it. So in fairness I have to say that I don't really remember anything about the exact moment when that bliss started, except that the onset was very sudden and unexpected (I was basically just out driving), and from that moment on it very gradually faded out.

Hey Mark,

I enjoyed reading your post and I think you have a healthy way of looking at this. The one way to know for sure is to keep practicing and keep reporting what is going on specifically. If it stream entry, this will become apparent as more shifts follow and if not that should become apparent as well. Thank you for sharing your practice.

Bill