A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta

  • AlexWeith
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10 years 11 months ago #83442 by AlexWeith
A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta was created by AlexWeith

"In the seen, there is only the seen, in the heard, there is only the heard, in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized. Thus you should see that indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself. Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen, in the heard, only the heard, in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized, and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that indeed there is no thing there. As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that, nor in any place betwixt the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.' (Ud. 1.10)
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  • AlexWeith
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10 years 11 months ago #83443 by AlexWeith
Replied by AlexWeith on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta

One way to interpret the ten ox-herding pictures is more of less in line with MCTB. Shen-yen Sifu and other Zen masters do however consider that what we call technical 4th path is only the 4th stage/picture, namely "Catching hold of the Ox". At this stage, one gains a deep insight into the essence of the Mind and, as a result awakens to Huang-po's One Mind.

"All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists. This Mind, which is without beginning is unborn and indestructible. It is not green nor yellow, and has neither form nor appearance. It does not belong in the categories of things which exist or do not exist, nor can it be thought of in terms of new or old. It is neither long nor short, big nor small, for it transcends all limits, measures, names, traces and comparisons. It is that which you see before you - begin to reason about it and you at once fall into error. It is like the boundless void which cannot be fathomed or measured" (Huang-po).

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  • cmarti
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10 years 11 months ago #83444 by cmarti
Replied by cmarti on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta

Alex, I'm not sure there is an end to the process of awakening. My own practice keeps taking me to different experiences, opening and realizations. I'm keeping my mind open and my practice alive but my intuition tells me that all the models are both part right and part wrong. Every time I lock into something and think, "Ah, this is it, this explains what happens," something else comes along within a few months to blow that theory out, too. Maybe I'm being too narrowly focused on my own experience. I really don't know.

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  • AlexWeith
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10 years 11 months ago #83445 by AlexWeith
Replied by AlexWeith on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta

There is no end to the process of awakening, but in Zen Buddhism there are steps and strategies. These introductory posts will explain my position, what I discovered so far, and how it unfolds.

Having got hold of the ox, one has realized the One Mind. In Zen literature this One Mind has often been compared to a bright mirror that reflects phenomena and yet remains untouched by appearances. As discussed with one of Sheng-yen's first Western students, this One Mind is still an illusion. One is not anymore identified to the self-center, ego and personality, yet one (the man) is still holding to pure non-dual awareness (the ox). Having tamed the ox, the ox-herder must let go of the ox (ox forgotten) and then forget himself and the ox (ox and man forgotten).

The problem is that we still maintain a subtle duality between what we know ourself to be, a pure non-dual awareness that is not a thing, and our daily existence often marked by self-contractions. Hoping to get more and more identified with pure non-dual awareness, we may train concentration, try to hold on to the event of awakening reifying an experience, or rationalize the whole thing to conclude that self-contraction is not a problem and that suffering is not suffering because our true nature is ultimately beyond suffering. This explains why I got stuck in what Zen calls "stagnating waters" for about a year.

This is however not seen as a problem in other traditions such as Advaita Vedanta where the One Mind is identified with the Brahman that contains and manifests the three states of waking, dreaming and deep sleep within itself, yet remains untouched by its dreamlike manifestation.

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  • AlexWeith
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10 years 11 months ago #83446 by AlexWeith
Replied by AlexWeith on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta

EDIT: This topic will go on and will be focused on sharing my private current practice focused on a strict application of the Buddha's teachings to the yogi Bahiya and its relevance from the point of view of Zen Buddhism in which I have been ordained some 13 years ago. The introduction just explains how this particular practice has become relevant for me as this specific stage, but should not be seen as an authoritative statement about how things should be or should unfold for others.

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  • cmarti
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10 years 11 months ago #83447 by cmarti
Replied by cmarti on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta

Alex, you, this topic and this conversation are more than welcome here. You are in no measure monopolizing the forum by creating and maintaining this one thread.

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  • AlexWeith
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10 years 11 months ago #83448 by AlexWeith
Replied by AlexWeith on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta

Thank you, Chris.
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  • jhsaintonge
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10 years 11 months ago #83449 by jhsaintonge
Replied by jhsaintonge on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta
As always looking forward to hearing more of your practice reflections, Alex-- I find them unfailingly interesting and applicable. Thank you for sharing.
-Jake
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  • AlexWeith
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10 years 11 months ago #83450 by AlexWeith
Replied by AlexWeith on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta

So what has been puzzling me what the sense of presence, the sense of being and its relation with the sense that things around me manifest their presence. Over the months I realized that if this beingness seems to be locatated as the center of our being, it is actually the flavor of all things.

Reading the blog "Awakening to Reality" that has become my main source of inspiration, I realized that this presence felt as the presence of 'what is' is the *luminosity* that the Mahamudra teachings are talking about. Gradually, feeling my own sense of being has become feeling the beingness of all things, leading to a deeper non-dual realization that gradually colapsed the sense of a Primoridal Awareness, True Self, or Bright Mirror into what is present here and now.

The conclusion is that all phenomena are in themself empty and luminous, ungraspable and self-aware, ever changing and alive. The conclusion is also that there is nothing beyond that; no permanent pure potential beyond phenomena, no true self that would be the source and substance of phenomena and above all no primordial awareness or Consciousness that would contain the five aggregates.

The whole universe is contained and expressed in a the "cypress tree in the court", simply because in the absence of a super Self in the background, the cypress tree brightly present in this very moment is the absolute reality made manifest in its suchness (tathata). Most Zen koans point to this realization, together with Hui-neng poem "Fundamentally no wisdom-tree exists, Nor the stand of a mirror bright. Since all is empty from the beginning, Where can the dust alight".

Surprizingly this deconstruction leads to a deeper level of non-duality. Huang-po's "One Mind' is starting to become Mazu's "No Mind, no Buddha".

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  • AlexWeith
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10 years 11 months ago #83451 by AlexWeith
Replied by AlexWeith on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta

Practically speaking this means:

1). becoming aware of one's sense of existence and focusing on it until it starts to feel as if the only reality is this pure presence-awareness containing everything;

2). shifting this sense of being-existence-presence-awareness to apprehend the beingness of all things, until everything starts to feel bright, luminous, present and alive. At this stage, there is no more "self" and "other", nor is there any subtle duality between primordial awareness and phenomena arising and passing away within it. There is only "seeing seeing the seen" without a seer, nor solid material objects behind the seen.

This does not mean that there is absolutely no Primordial Awareness, Self or One Mind. This would be an extreme position rejected by the Buddha. This explains why the Buddha remained silent when asked about the existence of a Self. Answering "Yes" would mean that there is an eternal abiding inherent essence beyond phenomena (eternalism), while answering "No" would lead to nihilism, the other extreme view. The Buddha's way is the middle way, between these two extremes. There is a self, but this self is an conventional concept to describe something that appears to be and is experienced as such, but it not an abiding ultimate reality.

There is a Mind, but this Mind is empty [of an abiding essence]. This Mind is the *non-abiding mind* of the Diamond Sutra. Therefore, *Mind* is *No Mind*.

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  • AlexWeith
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10 years 11 months ago #83452 by AlexWeith
Replied by AlexWeith on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta

Thanks - hope that you wil find a few interesting things to try.



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  • AlexWeith
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10 years 11 months ago #83453 by AlexWeith
Replied by AlexWeith on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta

This also means that the first step is to disembed from impermanent phenomena until the only thing that feels real is this all pervading uncreated all pervading awareness that feels like the source and substance of phenomena. Holding on to it after this realization can hower become a subtle form of grasping diguised as letting go.

The second step is therefore to realize that this brightness, awakeness or luminosity is there very nature of phenomena and then only does the duality between the True Self and the appearences arising and passing within the Self dissolve, revealing the suchness of what is.

The next step that I found very practical is to push the process of deconstruction a step further, realizing that all that is experienced is one of the six consciousness. In other words, there is neither a super Awareness beyond phenomena, not solid material objects, but only six streams of sensory experiences. The seen, the heard, the sensed, the tasted, the smelled and the cognized (including thoughts, emotions, and subtle thougths like absorbtion states, jhanas).

At this point it is not difficult to see how relevent the Bahiya Sutta can become.

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  • beoman
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10 years 11 months ago #83454 by beoman
Replied by beoman on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta
"The Buddha's way is the middle way, between these two extremes. There is a self, but this self is an conventional concept to describe something that appears to be and is experienced as such, but it not an abiding ultimate reality."

I'm not sure that is what is meant by the Middle Way. Check out this sutta: www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.048.than.html .

When asked about such things it seems the Buddha would divert the conversation to talking about dependent origination, which is in essence: suffering, why it arises, why it ceases, and how to learn to deal with it such that it ceases. None of those involve talk of 'me' or 'not-me' or 'self' or 'other' or 'One Mind' or
'Awareness' or ... etc. Just suffering-arising-cessation-path.

Thinking of it that way seems to avoid the necessity of these cosmological/metaphysical categorizations... and leads to a very straightforward practice: do not worry about attention wave, or what you are abiding as, or Primordial Awareness or Self or One Mind... just look: is there suffering? If so, why did it arise? etc...

Bringing it back to your practice... it might be a good tool to check whether there is more to be done. Regardless of what stage of deconstruction you are at, you can always check: is there suffering? If so, you know what to do (noble 8-fold path).

Thoughts?
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  • AlexWeith
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10 years 11 months ago #83455 by AlexWeith
Replied by AlexWeith on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta

Thank you Beoman. By Middle Way, the Buddha did include many things, but in general it is always about standing between two extremes. Same with co-dependent origination, it applies to the process that leads to the birth of the body, to the birth of the sense of self, as well as to the coming into being of all dharmas.

I am slowly coming to deeper aspects that will include co-dependent origination and suffering. However, I first have to set the stage, explaining why and how I came to find the Bahiya Sutta very effective, not only to deconstruct the appearence of a substancial inherent abiding eternal non-dual awareness beyond the 5 aggreates, but also to deconstruct all composed phenomena including the sense of self, passions, the sense of being located in a body, etc.

Once in an abiding non-dual state, this splitting of this unitive consciousness into 6 separate sense consciousness (hearing consciousness, etc.) does feel counter-intuitive. However, if the Buddha introduced the idea of six vijnanas forming the aggregate of consciousness -that in a way contains the other 4 aggregates that manifest within it- he had a practical reason for it. This is anyway my current experience and belief.

As to suffering, I don't know about all the implications of *dukha* since I am not free from suffering, freedom from suffering being the ultimate side effect of the Buddha's Awakening, something that is still way down the road.

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  • AlexWeith
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10 years 11 months ago #83456 by AlexWeith
Replied by AlexWeith on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta

I would add that by Zen, I mean the tradition into which I was ordained, simply because I am more familiar with it. Having talked and practiced with a few Chinese Ch'an practitioners (monks and laymen), I have often noted that their practice is taken strait out from the earliest Buddhist scriptures, namely that Chinese agamas that often pre-date the Pali Nikaya Suttas, but are almost identical in content.

It is only during the late South Song dynasty that Zen monks started to create their own practice methods such as koan investigation or silent illumination that were later imported in Japan. Tang Zen was mainly hardcore vipassana strait from the Anapanasati, Satipattana, Mahasatipattana or Bahiya Suttas. with the general view of the Mahayana based on a solid understanding of the earliest teachings of the Buddha that first came to China.


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  • beoman
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10 years 11 months ago #83457 by beoman
Replied by beoman on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta
Alex: "Once in an abiding non-dual state, this splitting of this unitive consciousness into 6 separate sense consciousness (hearing consciousness, etc.) does feel counter-intuitive. However, if the Buddha introduced the idea of six vijnanas forming the aggregate of consciousness -that in a way contains the other 4 aggregates that manifest within it- he had a practical reason for it. This is anyway my current experience and belief."

Yea this is a very counter-intuitive one. It does seem like there is 'something' tying it all together - be it the little man in the head or Awareness. And it feels like this something has control, or is controllable, or is control... I guess the trick is - in the seeing, just the seen. With seeing as a cause, there is the reaction to seeing. In the reaction to seeing, just the reaction to seeing. With reaction to seeing as a cause, there is reaction to reaction to seeing. Etc...

So, is there free will? Is there no free will? I guess these are the two extremes, and the skillful way to resolve it is the Middle Way.

It is interesting, thinking of it in terms of 'sharding' experience into 6 separate consciousnesses. I get the vision of ripping apart the center so it shatters into little pieces. Which sounds painful. But perhaps the pain is in thinking there is anything but that?

Shard it at an even finer level - in the sensations of the tip of the left index finger, just the sensations of the tip of the left index finger. In the sensation of the color of blue in the center of the left eye, just the sensation of the color of blue in the center of the left eye. And so forth. Uncountably infinite distinctions...
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  • giragirasol
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10 years 11 months ago #83458 by giragirasol
Replied by giragirasol on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta
"Once in an abiding non-dual state, this splitting of this unitive consciousness into 6 separate sense consciousness (hearing consciousness, etc.) does feel counter-intuitive. However, if the Buddha introduced the idea of six vijnanas forming the aggregate of consciousness -that in a way contains the other 4 aggregates that manifest within it- he had a practical reason for it. This is anyway my current experience and belief.

As to suffering, I don't know about all the implications of *dukha* since I am not free from suffering, freedom from suffering being the ultimate side effect of the Buddha's Awakening, something that is still way down the road.

"

@alex - can you explain how what you say in this quote about the streams of sense consciousness relates to how you described rigpa in the other thread in terms of your personal practice?
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  • AlexWeith
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10 years 11 months ago #83459 by AlexWeith
Replied by AlexWeith on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta

@beoman & @giragirasol:

Yes, when we realize that there is no super Awareness beyond consciousnes and become mindful of
consciousness as it manifests at the 6 doors of the senses, we also realize that everything that we can ever experience is contained within one of these 6 streams of consciousness, including the 4 other aggregates that are known through the agregate of consciousness and the arupa jhanas that are in reality very subtle non-conceptual mind-states of the cognizing-consciousness.

Arriving at this point, we can start to investigate the 5 aggregate as well as the sense of self.

If we start with the aggregate of form (the physical body), we realize that our direct experience of the body is nothing more than stream of images (seeing legs, arms, a nose), the other senses and above all sensations. Exploring these sensations we realize that there is an impermanent stream of sensations that more of less matches the images of the body. However, the stream of seeing-consciousness is always distinct from the stream of sensing-consciousness. One never sees a sensation, but an unpleasant sensations can match the sight of a wounder arm. These stream are therfore seem as independent, yet totally interdependent. A sound, can trigger a thought that can trigger a sensations, that can trigger the images of a hand moving. Altogether, these 6 impermanent every changing streams of consciousness create the illusion of a solid substancial body. The same method applies to the other aggregates.
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  • AlexWeith
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10 years 11 months ago #83460 by AlexWeith
Replied by AlexWeith on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta

When it comes to the investiation of the sense of self, we must first realize that, even after what some have called technical 4th path, and even if we know that what we are is not any of the 5 aggregates, we still have a sense of self, a sense of existence. The sense "I am" has not been overcome yet.

This issue is discussed in the Khemaka Sutta.
www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.089.than.html

In this text, Ven. Dasaka meets the Arhant Khemaka and tells him that "there is nothing I assume to be self or belonging to self, and yet I am not an arahant. With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this." (...) ""Friends, it's not that I say 'I am form,' nor do I say 'I am something other than form.' It's not that I say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,' nor do I say, 'I am something other than consciousness.' With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.'"

The Arhat answers saying "friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession."

Abendoning the five lower fetters means being an Anagami. Here the Arhant says that that even Anagami may still have a residual sense of self that he calls, the 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession."

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  • AlexWeith
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10 years 11 months ago #83461 by AlexWeith
Replied by AlexWeith on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta

As to how this sense 'I am' is experienced, the Arhant asks: "then how would he describe it if he were describing it correctly?"

And the monk replies, "as the scent of the flower: That's how he would describe it if he were describing it correctly." he sense of self is like the scent of the flower. It is the flavor of being.

In order to get rid of this residual sense of self and become an Aahat, the sage explains:

"As he keeps focusing on the arising & passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated. Just like a cloth, dirty & stained: Its owners give it over to a washerman, who scrubs it with salt earth or lye or cow-dung and then rinses it in clear water. Now even though the cloth is clean & spotless, it still has a lingering residual scent of salt earth or lye or cow-dung. The washerman gives it to the owners, the owners put it away in a scent-infused wicker hamper, and its lingering residual scent of salt earth, lye, or cow-dung is fully obliterated".

This means observing the arising and passing away of the 5 aggregates until "the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated".
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  • AlexWeith
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10 years 11 months ago #83462 by AlexWeith
Replied by AlexWeith on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta

Practically speaking, the above mentioned method works in the same way. One can either split each of the 5 aggregates into 6 streams of consciousness, to see how the sense of "a body" (aggregate of form) arises when all senses working together create the illusion of substantiality, pretty much like the images track and the sounds tracks of a movie that together create the illusion of reality. Using the same method we can also see how the illusion of a solid body dissolves when we look deeply and see that what we had assumed to be a body is nothing more than an illusion created by 6 impermanent, separate-yet-interdependent streams of consciousness.

We can also investigate the sense of self as such.

In the seen, only the seen. We first realize that we cannot know the objects seen as such, but only the seen (shapes, colors, textures, etc.). We also realize that there is no separate entity that sees. There is seeing, but no seer. Seeing is seeing. Same with the other streams of sense consciousness.

Then, what I do is to look for a sense of self, and see whether it is more assocated to one of these 6 streams of consciousness. It is generally associated with a physical sensation around the solar plexus or gut, and is therefore related to the stream of sensing-consciousness. When this is seen for what it is, the sense of self drops. There is nothing beside the spontanious functioning of the senses.

Here the purpose is not to lock and make permanent a special state of consciousness, but only to gain deeper and deeper insights into Anatta and Shunyata until we become absolutely unable to make anything into "me" or "mine".


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  • AlexWeith
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10 years 11 months ago #83463 by AlexWeith
Replied by AlexWeith on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta

@giragirasol - and yes the results experienced during meditation when we stop investigating and let go of clinging that what has been seen as an illusion does match the traditional description of Rigpa. It first come for a brief moment, until it eventually becomes the only game in town. This is no surpize, since the Dzogchen teachings are basically about seeing the fruit (of mainstream Buddhism) as its ground (view) and the path (practice).

But here one should clearly mention that there is absolutely no inherently existing "Awareness" that is felt as existing separately from "phenomena arising witghin awareness", which would be Advaita Vedanta and maybe Kashmir Shaivism, but not Dzogchen. The Dalai Lama was very clear about that and insisted on the fact that Dzogchen can lead people astay if they lack a clear understanding of no-self, emptiness, co-dependent origination, interdependence, etc., recommending the in-depth study of Longchenpa with a solid background rooted in Tsongkapa's Lam Rim or other similar treaties.

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  • AlexWeith
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10 years 11 months ago #83464 by AlexWeith
Replied by AlexWeith on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta

With respect to the Zen 10 ox-herding pictures this above deals with "ox forgotten, man remains" (no more super-Awareness, One Mind beyond the 18 dhatus, 6 senses) and then "ox and man forgotten" when the lingering "sense I am" that used to apprehend the aggregate of consciousnes as the One Mind is also extinguished. This is not the only interpretation, but it does match Zen master Sheng-yen's commentaries.

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  • AlexWeith
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10 years 11 months ago #83465 by AlexWeith
Replied by AlexWeith on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta

And of course, mindfulness of the mind/6 sense doors/citta, being totally one with the seen, the heard, etc. is at the heart of Zen practice.

Ultimately, meditation practice is always "allowing everything to be as it is". However can only let go of what we see as an illusion. As an exemple disembedding from thoughts, sensations and perceptions allows us see them as mere reflexions. It then becomes easier to let go of thougths, sensations and perceptions. However, the same practice will also crystalize the sense of a witness untouched by phenomena that gradually evolves into a super non-dual Awareness seen as the source and substance of phenomena. Without further investigation, letting go is letting go thoughts, sensations and perceptions, but unknowingly also holding on to the Witness, Awareness or some other illusory inherent self hanging somewhere in the background. It is only when we investigate and look deeply into this awareness that we become able to let go of clinging to what looked like the Absolute leading to a deeper non-dual realization from the Awareness vs reflections-within-awareness duality.

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  • jhsaintonge
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10 years 11 months ago #83466 by jhsaintonge
Replied by jhsaintonge on topic RE: A Zen exploration of the Bahiya Sutta
I apologize if this is off topic, Alex, and please let me know if it is. But what you're talking about here is very important and I have some unresolved (perhaps unresolvable) questions or ponderings (as distinct from "insight-disease" driven questions; just light wonderings).

Because I definitely grok this critique of a super-self beyond the condtioned arisings, whether it is felt to be a timeless witness forever separate from conditions (khandas), or whether it be an underlying substance or source which gives rise to conditions. Having had those experiences I've never felt attracted to them, seeing them as a trans-personal version of solid separate self, or inherantly existing essence to "reality'.

And yet... and yet! There does seem to be an unconditioned element, which along with being the unconditioned nature of conditions, has its own open expanse as well. It's tough to speak of, because any words I use could be taken to imply a substance underlying phenomena, a source, or an isolated super-witness (kaivalya atman) which is not intended. Yet, a stillness, openness, clearing, without borders or center, inseparable from conditions-- yet also never limited to conditions. it isn't an "it"-- not a thing, hence, "empty". Yet it "is", and it is very clear (sometimes, I even appreciate this fact LOL :-))

Maybe I'm jumping the gun on where you're headed with this thread-- just thought I'd interject my two cents worth of open-minded pondering.
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