Processes of Selfing

(Cont.)

"As a side-note, concerning your observation that pre-7th self-contraction is the same as the post-7th self-contraction, albeit grosser...it seems to me that the way this works is as follows:

* The stronger the perception of tension, the longer the mind lingers on an area and experiences develop in the area being lingered on,

* The tension is craving, the lingering is clinging, the development of various experiences is becoming,

* It makes sense that more craving leads to more clinging and more becoming,

* The difference between earlier and later levels of enlightenment is just that, at earlier levels, there is much more craving / tension, and this greater amount of craving / tension is the cause for forms of becoming to develop that are very gross kinds of dualistic experiences (such as the perception of mental states / emotions, or the perception of a full-on self)...less tension, less becoming, less gross forms of dualistic experience, and vice-versa. This is true of pre/post-7th, but probably true of every pair of stages (such as pre-path/1st path).

* This is analogous to the perception that I have and that you may have, that more tension leads to more lingering leads to a more developed "tingly" experience on the skin. Stages of enlightenment indicate an order of magnitude of change in how intense the tension and the resulting dualistic experience is. But, there is still moment-to-moment variation within some limits for any particular stage.

Interested in hearing your thoughts on that as well, if you care to share them."

Antero:

"Hi End,

I tried to investigate the attention bouncing with the phenomena of tingling feeling on the skin. The only difficulty is that recently I have had very little tingling feeling on the skin or anywhere at all. I used to feel my '˜energy body' all the time, but that has changed lately. If I look really closely, I can make out some faint tingling sensations on the skin and experimented with them and it seems to be like you said. The more there is bouncing, the more there seems to be lingering also, but it is hard to be certain because of the faintness of the sensation. When the bouncing peters out completely, the tingling disappears completely and the part of the body that was observed seems to become '˜luminous'. Its edges disappear and it merges with the ground luminosity of all things.

By the way, this disappearing of tingling sensations seems to be connected with the changes that have happened with the jhanas. If I now access the jhanas there are absolutely no sensations that are associated with the movement of energy and all those tingling and prickling sensations moving in waves around the body. Have you noticed the same thing?

I agree with your theory of craving, clinging and becoming. Although in my experience the tension is felt as resistance to what is instead of clinging, although I think it is just another way of describing the same thing. When I direct my attention to something and the attention bounce is doing its thing, it feels like I am swimming against the current if I want to keep the attention in place."

(Cont.)

(Cont.)

"Recently I have started to experience all phenomena simply as a fluctuation of the mind. When the attention is at rest and fluctuations cease, the nature of the mind is revealed. When the fluctuations start and mental images, proto thought, thoughts (and previously emotions) arise, it is still the same nature of the mind with the only difference that it is now in motion, the same luminous and empty presence that has started to vibrate. Can you relate to that experience?"

EndInSight:

">I tried to investigate the attention bouncing with the
>phenomena of tingling feeling on the skin. The only
>difficulty is that recently I have had very little tingling feeling
>on the skin or anywhere at all.

Yes, I had this change as well, and so it is hard to see this process as clearly as before. (I investigated it about two months ago when this phenomenon was clearer.)

>By the way, this disappearing of tingling sensations seems
>to be connected with the changes that have happened with
>the jhanas. If I now access the jhanas there are absolutely
>no sensations that are associated with the movement of
>energy and all those tingling and prickling sensations
>moving in waves around the body. Have you noticed the
>same thing?

Yes, but not to the same extent. Most areas of my body are easy to perceive, but some are very vague (covered with an experience of "blankness"). For example, right now it seems that, to some extent, a void extends behind my body; but the void is just part of my head region, perceived poorly.

Areas that are easy to perceive have no tingling in jhana. With strong concentration, there is just a wall of unmoving pleasantness.

Areas that are "blank" suddenly have tingling sensations once I start to concentrate a little bit. As I continue this, they "fill in" permanently a bit more, and the tingling subsides to that extent. I expect that, when there are no more "blank" parts, there will be basically no tingling or energy stuff.

>When I direct my attention to something and the attention
>bounce is doing its thing, it feels like I am swimming
>against the current if I want to keep the attention in place.

Me too."

(Cont.)

(Cont.)

">Recently I have started to experience all phenomena
>simply as a fluctuation of the mind. [...] Can you relate to that experience?

Possibly, though I think of it in different terms. It seems to me that the only things in experience are luminous sense-phenomena, and mental fluctuations. The mental fluctuations present as the same kind of thing as sense-phenomena...not me, not my reactions, not my doings, just some impersonal fluctuations of consciousness, just as sense-phenomena are impersonal events.

On the other hand, when the fluctuations are reduced, it does seem to me that they are of a different nature than sense-phenomena (as the fluctuations are residual dualistic stuff), and the fluctuations simply cause the mind to believe otherwise when they arise.

Either way, the residual fluctuations are forms of suffering, so whatever they may or may not be, I plan to get rid of them.

Two questions, out of curiousity...

1) With the cessation of energy stuff and tingling in jhana, is there also the cessation of the impression of attention being wide or narrow? What about when attention is not bouncing anywhere?

2) You have been interested in rigpa in the past; I still am not sure what other people mean by it (but I have some guesses); how would you relate what you called rigpa in the past to your current experience?"

Antero:

"Hi End,

> 1) With the cessation of energy stuff and tingling in jhana, is there also the cessation of the
> impression of attention being wide or narrow? What about when attention is not bouncing
> anywhere?'

When the mind is in a state of absolute rest with no oscillation, bouncing or fluctuation happening, the attention itself seems to cease to exist as a separate entity. It merges with everything and no widening or narrowing is possible. So no jhanas are possible either, not even the watered down versions with the shifting focus.

>2) You have been interested in rigpa in the past; I still am not sure what other people mean by
> it (but I have some guesses); how would you relate what you called rigpa in the past to your
> current experience?'

The experience is very similar, but there are some differences.

Before when I was abiding in the clear light, I had an impression of being one with everything, that I had discovered the underlying substrate of consciousness and merged with it, body and mind dissolved in it. This luminosity seemed to have a reality of its own and Self was completely merged with it. Thoughts arose and passed without having any impact to that state.

Nowadays the existence of some all pervading substrate of consciousness is seen as impossible. How could anything merge with something when everything is empty arising out of nothingness and passing again into nothingness? There is just unfabricated manifestation of the essential nature of the mind expressing itself. Previously I tried to get to that state, but now it is about allowing and recognizing something that is already present. Thoughts do not even arise in this emptiness.

Does this make any sense to you?"

EndInSight:

">When the mind is in a state of absolute rest with no
>oscillation, bouncing or fluctuation happening, the attention
>itself seems to cease to exist as a separate entity. It
>merges with everything and no widening or narrowing is
>possible. So no jhanas are possible either, not even the
>watered down versions with the shifting focus.

About attention: my experience too.

Here are the traditional jhana similes:
www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca...a-samadhi/jhana.html

For example, here is the second jhana: "Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from east, west, north, or south, and with the skies periodically supplying abundant showers, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade, suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure..."

When there is no attention bounce, there is no absorption or emotional bliss or proto-emotional bliss. But, there is no reason that this type of experience (a pleasant experience of the body) is incompatible with that. Without attention bounce, there is an experience of the body which can be pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, even if it is a radically different (unbounded, de-emphasized) experience of the body than when attention is apparent, and jhana would be a modification of that experience of the body."

(Cont.)

(Cont.)

"What if jhana is about a pleasant experience of the body in the state where attention doesn't bounce and attention isn't seen to exist, and not about anything concerning the perception of attention being wide or narrow, the perception of attention being focused on an object, the perception of attention being unmoving, the perception of a state called "jhana" being entered or a mental object called "jhana" being experienced or an identify being merged with it or absorption into it, etc...more generally, if everything whatsoever in the state in which attention bounces which is peculiar to that state has nothing to do with jhana?

In that case, you could experience jhana just fine without attention bouncing. But, you could also experience it just fine with attention bouncing; you would just ignore all the additional qualities that the bouncing of attention brings to it (seeing them as "on top of" the jhana experience or as extraneous mental activity).

Does that make sense? What do you think?

In general, I think that there has been a lot of misunderstanding of what the Pali suttas are talking about, both in history and in the pragmatic dharma community. "

(Cont.)

(Cont.)

">Before when I was abiding in the clear light, I had an
>impression of being one with everything, that I had
>discovered the underlying substrate of consciousness and
>merged with it, body and mind dissolved in it. This
>luminosity seemed to have a reality of its own and Self was
>completely merged with it. Thoughts arose and passed
>without having any impact to that state.
>
>Nowadays the existence of some all pervading substrate of
>consciousness is seen as impossible. How could anything
>merge with something when everything is empty arising out
>of nothingness and passing again into nothingness? There
>is just unfabricated manifestation of the essential nature of
>the mind expressing itself. Previously I tried to get to that
>state, but now it is about allowing and recognizing
>something that is already present. Thoughts do not even
>arise in this emptiness.
>
>Does this make any sense to you?

Maybe. I have always had a different working hypothesis (that every experience is a mental object), so, while I may have had experiences that are similar to what you describe, I would not have thought of them in the way you describe. But, that makes it hard to be sure that we're talking about the same thing.

I can say that I had many experiences in the past that were similar to my current state now, but had some additional confused element that diminished them, and may match what you're talking about.

What would you say the essential difference is between your experience now and your previous experience of rigpa?"

(Cont.)

(Cont.)

"For me, I would say the essential difference is the lack of attention bouncing in a way that generates a dualistic perception of a gross object that could be mistakenly seen to be "consciousness" or "substrate" or "Self'"

Antero:

"> When there is no attention bounce, there is no absorption or emotional bliss or proto
> -emotional bliss. But, there is no reason that this type of experience (a pleasant experience of
> the body) is incompatible with that. Without attention bounce, there is an experience of the
> body which can be pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, even if it is a radically different
> (unbounded, de-emphasized) experience of the body than when attention is apparent, and
> jhana would be a modification of that experience of the body.'

Some weeks ago I would have agreed with this description: the jhanas were still in operation, except that the absorptive quality was replaced with spaciousness, openness and emptiness and bodily fluctuations of rapture and bliss were missing. Now this seems to be changing.

It seems to me that there is a process going on that is doing away with the jhanas altogether. At the moment it is almost impossible for me to ride the jhanic arc, as all the states resemble each other so closely. The shape of the attention is still shifting very very subtly, but that is about the only change there is between the states. There is emptiness and knowing and very little else that I can report. Almost like divisions of different altered states are dissolving and everything is becoming one huge soup of bright unimpeded awareness.

It could be that as the remains of the attention bounce or Sense of Being are being dissolved by the purification process, everything that is conditioned by it is dissolving as well. If I want, I can still switch the old vibrating mode back on and see how the attention is bouncing again in a more gross way. I can feel my energy body flowing again and jhanas modify this energy body about the way you described. The shape of the attention is clearly distinct in each jhana as I ride the arc."

EndInSight:

">It seems to me that there is a process going on that is
>doing away with the jhanas altogether. At the moment it is
>almost impossible for me to ride the jhanic arc, as all the
>states resemble each other so closely. The shape of the
>attention is still shifting very very subtly, but that is about
>the only change there is between the states.

I think I haven't been clear about what I'm getting at. I experience a form of jhana that is independent of the "shape" of attention (as the "shape" of attention is just attention bounce in some form...as I experience it, a bounce between experience-as-a-whole and some residual dualistic sensations on various parts of my face).

If you want to explore this, explore the possibility of generating jhana factors (piti / sukha) in a way that has nothing to do with attention bounce / the shape of attention / "energy" / vibrations / etc.

In general, to do this practice, it helps to assume that previous experiences of jhana, and the models that go with them, have little or nothing to do with what I'm describing.

This question might be useful to contemplate: if you no longer had anything resembling what you consider to be jhana, and yet someone ran up to you and injected you with opiates, would it change your experience of your body in a pleasant way? If so, how? If you can get a sense of what sort of things might change, you will get a sense of what you are trying to cultivate in terms of jhana factors."

(Cont.)

(Cont.)

"For what it's worth, to compare our experience regarding the jhanic arc, I just moved very quickly between jhanas 1 and 8, and see no clear difference between any of those states. (I don't even know how I recognize which is which, though I still seem to be able to.) Again, the experience of jhana I'm describing is largely unrelated to this kind of thing."

Antero:

"I think I know now what you are getting at now. It sounds interesting and something worth investigating."

EndInSight:

"If you can figure out how to cultivate jhana factors in this way, then you can do it *independently* of whether there is attention bounce / etc., i.e. you can do it in any state.

My suggestion for how to access this form of jhana (which is what I believe the pali suttas have been describing) is just to cultivate the non-attention bounce jhana factors as much as possible, and see what happens."

Antero:

"As I have experimented with my jhanic states, I have come to the conclusion that what I am experiencing in those states may be the same thing that you are describing. The attention no longer has the shape it usually had. There is a 'shadow shape' or 'intended shape' of attention from which I can recognize what jhana I am currently getting. Other than that I see no other obvious changes between the states, so for me the jhana does not seem to modify the experience anymore. In all the jhanas there is subtle and spacious pleasantness present that is no longer affected by the attention bounce.

How would you describe the difference between the first four jhanas?"

EndInSight:

"There is very little to say about the jhanas apart from the jhana-factors. And the jhana-factors are hard to describe in terms apart from saying what they resemble or remind me of, or what words come to mind when thinking of them:

Piti: refreshing, "bright / radiant", ambrosial

Sukha: soft, warm

Upekkha: nice, unconcerned, "pure"

1st jhana: the (idiosyncratic) sense that this isn't a "real" jhana because of applied / sustained thought on top of bliss

2nd jhana: unmoving wall of (physical) bliss

3rd jhana: all the "heft" of the wall of bliss disappears, but there is still bliss of a simpler and more transparent sort

4th jhana: pleasant, aware, alert, non-attached.

My experiences of 1st jhana may not be of appropriate strength to really see what it's like (as I think I tend to build a great deal of concentration while hanging out around 2nd jhana).

The best way to describe the jhanas beyond this is by pointing to what they don't have: normal cognition. There is a kind of paralysis of the mind that can occur, not as a felt sense that "the mind is paralyzed", but as a later reflection on the fact that cognition had shut down in some way.

The pleasantness you're describing could be a very preliminary form of piti / sukha, or upekkha which is present in some way in all the jhanas, It sounds to me like you need to cultivate the factors more strongly to see what I'm talking about. Imagine someone injected you with strong opiates...that is what you should be shooting for in jhana 2. "

(Cont.)

(Cont.)

"When the jhana-factors are very strong, you should be able to switch between jhanas, and have whatever factors are appropriate for the new jhana come into experience at the same strength (so e.g. if piti / sukha are strong in jhana 1, switching to jhana 4 will get rid of them, but upekkha will present strongly).

The way I suggest testing whether the jhana factors are strong enough, is to use the above fact...generate as much piti / sukha as possible, and then advert (in the way that you would previously, according to your previous understanding of jhana) to jhana 5. If they are strong enough your sensory experience will immediately be cut off. (There is an imitation of this kind of thing that can happen, where some kind of weird formless percept appears that has a "glow" and doesn't seem to be sensory, and is experienced while the other senses are somehow in the background...I believe this is a nimitta, and, if it doesn't lead to an experience with the senses cut off, your concentration was not strong enough.)

In general I found that jhana practice (or even cultivating jhana factors) is difficult when not on retreat, or when it isn't one's sole practice.

Anyway, hopefully that helps. A simpler and less technical way to think of all this is: can the "simple and spacious pleasantness" you experience be stronger? Can it be 10x stronger? Can it be 100x stronger? Try to make it stronger in whatever way you can"