Not an endless path

This is not to say that, as such, Vajrayana is better than let's say Theravada, but only that the Mahayana presupposes the mastery of Pali Buddhism. Otherwise, and this is what we see in Western Tibetan centers, monks and muns have not yet reached the first stages of enlightement after 20 years of practice, simply because they wasted years trying to master something that is not really useful or relevant before the mastery of Pali Buddhism.

This is of course a very personal opinion, based on interaction with Buddhist practitioners from various schools, including Vajrayana nuns who confessed me that after 15 years living in a monastery studying with a prestigious tulku they were finally able to complete the 'generation stage', arising as the Dhyana Buddha. Taking Daniel Ingram's book MCTB as a guide and companion while keeping a day job, they would have achieved much more, much faster IMHO.

In other words, it is not about which Buddhist school one "belongs to", nor about what very advanced practice one is doing, but more about what is useful at what stage based on a general understanding of the Buddhist path.

Wonderful explanation! Thank you, Alex.

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Wonderful explanation! Thank you, Alex.

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Thanks Hope it clarifies a bit. Hard to summarize 2500 years of Buddhist history.

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Thanks Hope it clarifies a bit. Hard to summarize 2500 years of Buddhist history.


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<bow>Alex, Synthesizer of All World Knowledge</bow>

When I say logical order, it is also mainly what feels logical for me. However, the path is always personal.

Some get to 4th path (Kenneth's 5th Stage) through "recognizing awareness" and self-inquiry, other through hardcore Birmese vipassana.

Beyond 4th path, some practitioners focus on the extirpation of the sense of self (feeling closer to the methods of AF and Pali Buddhism), while others focus more on the cultivation of bliss and compassion. Some focus on emptiness of self first, while others focus on both emptiness of self and phenomena, in a bundle.

Some, strait from stage 1, may decide to stick to one single practice and tradition such as Mahamudra or Soto Zen that will gradually lead them to deeper and subtler recognitions of emptiness and clarity (awareness) as the path unfolds.

"Alex, Synthesizer of All World Knowledge "


It's worse than that. All these discussions and arguments already took place within my tiny brain over the years. What I feel excited about is the fact that, a few years ago, we may have assumed that these ancient Buddhist books were all talking about impossible fairy tales or absurdly complicated philosophical issues. Now, we are all starting to see that this stuff is actually doable, even if it takes time and dedicated practice.

"2). to focus more on Direct Mode, 3rd Gear practice, Apperception, Bahiya Sutta, etc. to realize 'Emptiness of Self' (Kenneth's 6th, 7th and 8th Stages).
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Alex, to return to the original theme of this thread, Kenneth says that the 8th stage continually deepens forever (and [if I recall what Kenneth has said] he has met someone who has moved deeply into it over more than a decade, who is still not "done").

The impression I got from speaking with Kenneth is that competence in non-narrative thinking allows one to turn that perspective on and off...this is important because, as I understood what Kenneth told me, there are times when narrative thinking must be turned on for a few moments in order to accomplish real-world tasks. (I believe this was the experience of the person who has been living it for more than a decade.)

To me, this is a difficulty with your interpretation, since you are taking what is claimed to be a stage that never ends as a stage that one can master completely. Thus, I wonder if you and Kenneth have the same thing in mind when you talk about the 8th stage.

"3). to study, contemplate, look deeply and eventually empty the 5 aggregates and realize the 'Emptiness of phenomena', cultivating compassion to realized the 'union of prajna and karuna'."

What would be some practices that would lead in this direction?

"This page seems relevant and should bring clarity and distinction to the seeming conflicts of perspective in this thread:

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Q+%26+A+on+the+Non-dual "

I believe that many views about various things have changed since that page was written, so, I am not sure how helpful it is likely to be in context of this discussion.

To offer an interesting thought about some things that have been mentioned...it has been stated that one cannot apply vipassana to non-dual experience, because the act of doing so prevents one from apprehending it.

In my own case, concerning what I call nondual experience, I have found that once this is stabilized as an ongoing apprehension that does not stop, one's current mental state can be analyzed via vipassana (or via anything) just fine, without affecting it in any meaningful way...I can examine which components are nondual, and what dualistic residue remains floating over it. I have found that the nature of the dualistic residue is such that it inclines the mind to believe that the dualistic residue is somehow included in the nondual...whereas, by observing the rapid fluctuation between nondual and dual, I see that this is merely an illusion caused by the nature of the mind to take the dual for the nondual (e.g. to take the dual I-see-this for the nondual moment of actually seeing), and that, in the split-second of apprehending the dual, the mind completely misses the nondual.

Would anyone like to pursue this subject, speaking from their own experience?

"I believe that many views about various things have changed since that page was written, so, I am not sure how helpful it is likely to be in context of this discussion."


This is what I meant.

"What would be some practices that would lead in this direction?"


Vipassana. But, by vipassana I don't necessarily mean cycling through the stages of insight knowlege. Basically, it means looking deeply into things as they realy. One can for instance observe thoughts to see: from where they arise, where do they abide and pass away, what they are made of, who or what is aware of thoughts, etc. Same with the 5 aggregates, the six sense doors, etc.

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Vipassana. But, by vipassana I don't necessarily mean cycling through the stages of insight knowlege. Basically, it means looking deeply into things as they realy. One can for instance observe thoughts to see: from where they arise, where do they abide and pass away, what they are made of, who or what is aware of thoughts, etc. Same with the 5 aggregates, the six sense doors, etc.

"

When doing a pali course in India, I was taught by the fluent pali speaking former monk teacher that vi=intensifier and passana comes from passati which means 'to see'.

I think this is very telling about the practice and what it should entail.

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This is not to say that, as such, Vajrayana is better than let's say Theravada, but only that the Mahayana presupposes the mastery of Pali Buddhism. Otherwise, and this is what we see in Western Tibetan centers, monks and muns have not yet reached the first stages of enlightement after 20 years of practice, simply because they wasted years trying to master something that is not really useful or relevant before the mastery of Pali Buddhism.

...Taking Daniel Ingram's book MCTB as a guide and companion while keeping a day job, they would have achieved much more, much faster IMHO.

"

So true. In fact, there should be at least an understanding of emptiness such as the one explained in the link you provided earlier, an understanding of emptiness like the one Chris points out. Without this, it is very very difficult to make real progress through Generation Stage. If you realize experientially that "emptiness is form", then all visualizations, mantras, etc. will truly be empty and free, and one could actually cultivate release from dualistic fixation, wisdom and karuna at the same time, through the tridimensional techniques.

With prajña, all tantric prayers cease to be just prayers or chanting, and become accelerators/pointers perfectly synchronized with right view, PCE, nondualism or rigpa.