Sneezes and Breezes

Loco: "@ end in sight: please open your sneezethread to explain there the whole story how you managed to examine the change of sneeze over the years while you don't notice anything special in it and how you invented the sneeze-time-course in sneezology and i will explain how the tibetans think that a short very forced outbreath through the nose can make the energies stop and how some perception-processes set out for a moment."

Well, the story is not nearly as involved as you think. I have always been interested in "momentary" experiences that arise during normal waking life which are quite different from the kinds of experiences they're surrounded by. For example, a moment of being startled (as occurs in many Zen stories related to enlightenment).

Most distinctive for me about sneezing is the moment right before the sneeze: I have been interested in the sense of impending relief (what is it?), but I have also noticed that there is sometimes a change of consciousness of some kind that I can discern at approximately that point, which involves a temporary kind of absorption into the sense of relief. Both of these things (the sense of relief, the absorption) have changed for me during my practice...right now, there is no absorption, and the sense of relief is altered in a way that is difficult for me to understand or explain.

I never examined the moment after a sneeze until now, and when I did, I did not find anything spectacular occurring.

When I suddenly exhale strongly through my nose right now, I find that vision cuts out for a split-second, and is replaced by what appears to be a formless experience. The formless experience appears to be similar or equivalent to 5th jhana space or 6th jhana consciousness. This may occur immediately after sneezing, but because it is subtle and momentary, it is hard to say much about (or discern which formless experience it is clearly).

(cont)

Apart from the lack of visual input, it is not especially different from my normal ongoing experience, which is why I said I didn't notice anything special in it.

Loco, if you could share more about what is supposed to be going on during a sneeze, I would like to hear it, because it is the kind of thing I would be keen to pay close attention to when it happens in the future.

When I sneeze I see a very small period of time after the sneeze that is completely open, full of possibility and void of thoughts, concepts and expectations. It's very much like the brief moment after a cessation. It is not at all like most normal waking moments. So I think that's what the Tibetans are referring to.

Does it have normal visual or sensory experience? Could you describe it more thoroughly?

"Does it have normal visual or sensory experience?"

No.

I can only describe it as I did already - it is a brief period of no expectation, no concepts, no thought, yet it is pregnant with possibilities. It doesn't seem to matter what I'm looking at, hearing, touching, feeling or thinking just prior to the sneeze.. It's very much like the brief periods when coming out of a cessation.

Not sure how much more I can say, EndInSight.

I think get what you're talking about, and that perhaps we're talking about the same experience that occurs after a forceful voluntary exhalation through the nose as well as after a sneeze.

It's not that different from my normal ongoing experience, at least at the moment. (Except that my normal experience includes sensory stuff and some thoughts, of course.)

Loco, still looking forward to hearing from you about this issue.

I observed two more sneezes over the last two days. There is a "formless" moment which is identical to what can be produced by a rapid voluntary exhalation through the nose; this moment does not occur at the exact end of the sneeze, but at the approximate moment when the air velocity begins to (rapidly) taper off...*almost* at the end of the sneeze.

What do the Tibetans say?

Hehe, I can't believe that we really have this sneeze thread here now that's cFoUoNooool

the energy system of the body as imagined is prescientific similar to for example our middle age medicine. that doesn't mean that it's wrong in it's observations, but the explanations for phenomena might change over time and with our point of view be questionable.

there are two channels parallel to the spine which end at the top of the nose into the nostrils. these are responsible for dualistic thinking yes/no, good/bad, this or the other, left/right etc. in these channels are flowing winds which are related to the breath, which is connecting with it's wave of up and down movement the head (intellect) / sky / consciousness / male with the pelvis (instincts) / ground / feelings / female. right in the middle between is the heart which is related to the element of air, a mixture between material and nonmaterial.

if you sneeze, you are emptying those channel very fast, in a way that the flow is disrupted. it happens the same what happens to on airplane when the stream current is interrupted, it is stalling. so these energies stand still for a moment. there is still energy left in the central channel, so there is consciousness. for this moment conscious is therefore carried only by energy in the central channel, which is nondual, forces extinguish each other here.

it takes me no wonder that you don't experience something. 6 billion don't. it is not used as a practice, it is just a pointer, for those who have a mahamudra experience, to be sure that two people are speaking about the same thing (sneezing is a reflex and not an individual experience). one can not have a deja vu without a vu. the bloodhound has to get the smell directly from the clothes of somebody before he can detect the trace. you can only recognize things you have seen before. it is kind of a profane version of the original.

"I observed two more sneezes over the last two days. There is a "formless" moment which is identical to what can be produced by a rapid voluntary exhalation through the nose; this moment does not occur at the exact end of the sneeze, but at the approximate moment when the air velocity begins to (rapidly) taper off...*almost* at the end of the sneeze.

What do the Tibetans say?"

Uh, ok my post might not be up to date then. Yes, that is meant. there is also an exercise where you sit down in meditation posture, one crosses his left and right indexfinfinger with extended arms over the head and moves the arms quickly (like chopping) down and to the respective side of the body (left to left/right to right) while shouting out HA! (very strong and with a deep voice) and breathing out through the nose at the same time. (LOL, but works...) for those interested: helps also in tummo if the breath feels unfree somehow or when you get stuck in a black objectless space that is not emptiness ("not-hot-not-cold-hell") and is somehow related to deepsleep and you can not really move. it catapults you out immediately into a very serious but clean mood.

I don't think sneezing completely qualifies as a reflex in the same in the same way a hiccup or other more involuntary reflexes do.
What happens if you observe the urge to sneeze with equanimity, and don't react?
For me, it turns from a kind of intense itch to a more intense pain in the sinuses then dissolves.
Try it. Where did that potential sneeze go?
You've just accomplished a non-sneeze.
Now on the the non-hiccup.

Gary - I do that with sneezes if I'm in a group meditation, in an attempt not to disturb others. It works (for me) if I catch the urge to sneeze early enough. There's a tipping point where it's much harder to have any effect and the sneeze usually comes out anyway.

As to hiccups, I have stopped hiccups for years by just doing an internal soft relaxation of the chest, stomach and throat and gentle slow breathing. It's a trick I taught myself as a teen and it seems to work very well unless the hiccups are well established - that is, it works best if you apply it during the first few hiccups, not after ten minutes or more of hiccupping. Anyone else try it? It is not totally unrelated to the trick my childhood friends used, of bending over with the head by the knees and then sipping a glass of water upsidedown. That also works, probably because of a combination of mental focus required to drink in that position and the relaxation of the chest/throat created by being bent over?

"it is not used as a practice, it is just a pointer, for those who have a mahamudra experience, to be sure that two people are speaking about the same thing (sneezing is a reflex and not an individual experience). one can not have a deja vu without a vu. the bloodhound has to get the smell directly from the clothes of somebody before he can detect the trace. you can only recognize things you have seen before. it is kind of a profane version of the original."

Loco, thanks for the reply.

I still say that this moment after sneezing is very much like my normal ongoing experience. (My ongoing experience is pretty rad.) As I am interested in figuring out what non-Pali Buddhist traditions have to say about various stages of contemplative practice, should I take this as a possible indication that my practice has led to some kind of permanent stabilization of mahamudra (albeit not 100%)? (Unfortunately I only really know the Pali suttas.)

"there is also an exercise where you sit down in meditation posture, one crosses his left and right indexfinfinger with extended arms over the head and moves the arms quickly (like chopping) down and to the respective side of the body (left to left/right to right) while shouting out HA! (very strong and with a deep voice) and breathing out through the nose at the same time. (LOL, but works...) for those interested: helps also in tummo if the breath feels unfree somehow or when you get stuck in a black objectless space that is not emptiness ("not-hot-not-cold-hell") and is somehow related to deepsleep and you can not really move. it catapults you out immediately into a very serious but clean mood."

This is meant to lead to the same thing as a sneeze, or something different?

Are the arms moved in sync, or one after the other?

"if you sneeze, you are emptying those channel very fast, in a way that the flow is disrupted. it happens the same what happens to on airplane when the stream current is interrupted, it is stalling. so these energies stand still for a moment. there is still energy left in the central channel, so there is consciousness. for this moment conscious is therefore carried only by energy in the central channel, which is nondual, forces extinguish each other here."

Related to this observation, I just tested what happens when I inhale rapidly, and found that it does not produce the same experience as exhaling, and in fact seems to exacerbate dualistic stuff for a moment (either due to the nature of inhaling rapidly, or due to the forceful intention to inhale).

Interesting.

@ Are the arms moved in sync, or one after the other?

--- sync

@ As I am interested in figuring out what non-Pali Buddhist traditions have to say about various stages of contemplative practice..

--- I would be crucified, if I post that

"@ As I am interested in figuring out what non-Pali Buddhist traditions have to say about various stages of contemplative practice..

--- I would be crucified, if I post that "

On reflection, I probably shouldn't have asked. (However, I did say *possible* indication. Diagnoses via internet are not especially certain.)

Thanks for the info!

"On reflection, I probably shouldn't have asked. (However, I did say *possible* indication. Diagnoses via internet are not especially certain.)

Thanks for the info!"

I didn't mean it in that way, I meant that in this tibetan system the loss of the ego is called liberation (end of suffering) and is by far not enlightenment and that this is probably not the opinion of the most theravada buddhists.

Could you say more about how mahamudra / the stabilization of mahamudra is related to the loss of ego or to enlightenment?

(I don't have any vested interest in any particular tradition being right; I'm just interested in what speaks to my experiences and / or what seems to be relevant to my current practice.)

should tangent become new thread, rather than being under sneezing topic? just for organizational sake and the sanity of other readers?

"should tangent become new thread, rather than being under sneezing topic? just for organizational sake and the sanity of other readers?"

Yes, we could call it "Via dolorosa" or "Golgotha"