6th Stage Question

Hello,

I am curious how those who have attained 6th stage in Kenneth's model have gotten there. Kenneth's suggestion was to watch his direct path videos, but from a cursory glance it seems he doesn't note mind states during the videos which is something I've noticed yogis report doing while working towards 6th stage. At this point my practice is real metta heavy as it's been for a couple months but I plan to begin using the techniques to move towards 6th stage in a few weeks. My practice journal through the paths was on the now defunct pragmatic dharma forum so I imagine I'll post here from now on given that this board was helpful in the past. Any tips or information are appreciated. Thank you.

Bill

Bill, I find it hard to offer advice without knowing anything at all about your previous practice. Can you give us a little history first? What makes you believe you are ready for 6th stage? What besides metta practice have you ben doing? What are you referring to as "the practices" in your comment? Which practices are those?

Just curious... and thanks.

Bill,
These teachings seem to be for paying persons only. they are secret I guess.
Many secrets at KFD, like 11 herbs and spices!!
Why not share the Dharma? it is meant for all, no?

Unknwn

That's what i was getting at. Let's start the sharing by sharing a little more history before we jump in without knowing anything about each other.

Also:

Unknwn, you're brand new here -- about 15 minutes old! Will you be hanging around?

Again, just curious....

Thank you guys for the response. I spoke to Kenneth in September regarding the fmri project at Yale and his belief was that I was at the 5th stage of his current model and he spoke some about the emotional transformation that he said was the next shift in practice. My own teacher is Vince Horn. I was at what is described here as 3rd path and then there was a shift where the base of experience seemed to shift and the desperate energy that had been driving my meditative experience for years left and has not been back since in the way it was there before. I'm not going to list the meditation practices I've done, but I used primarily noting while moving through paths as this is what brought about stream entry. I didn't write "the practices" in my post, but I assume you're referring to my use of the word "techniques". I was referring to the techniques presented in the direct path videos along with those used by yogis who have attained 6th stage. I am just curious what works. As a side note, I understand your need as a moderator to ask questions like those you posed and think it's a responsible way to go about this to clear up confusion. If you have anymore questions, please. I have posted here occasionally and my movement through the paths was up on the pragmatic dharma forum from stream entry to 4th, but I don't think the forum is open any longer. Unknwn, I'm not sure what your post means, but if it was intended to be helpful "thank you".

I've always been here, you didn't notice though, because my pants are too tight.
Since 1979 I've only drank hot chocolate, this has been key to much success!!
Try please tight pants.

Your tight pants have made you a bit loopy, Unknwn.

"I am just curious what works."

Bill, part of the answer to your question is experimentation, as what worlds for one may not work for another, and vice versa. In my case what works is to continue in the spirit of vipassana, investigating the nature and source of feelings like anger and anxiety. Vipassana is an all-purpose yogi tool, sort of like a Swiss Army Knife. By attaching closely wheat's going on one can decompose the stuff.

I also highly recommend experimenting with what Kenneth calls "the clear light." I'd call this non-dual awareness. For this I just sit and let the natural state of awareness emerge, then just be.

JMHO

I am aware of the "clear light" practice you referenced as it was my primary practice during 3rd path and in the weeks following the last shift. When I'm sitting in such a way or just walking around allowing awareness, things feel whole, complete, natural and there is nothing to be done. From that perspective the idea of stages seems kinda silly and almost like taking a step backward to correct what is already unblemished. Yet, I can't deny that there are still contractions going on and identification with phenomena. Even if such identification is seen through and the self always comes up hollow, its persistence is troubling, so I'm interested in moving forward with the faith that greater freedom is possible, hence my original post. Thank you for taking the time to respond and offering your advice.

Bill

Hi Bill,

While I was working towards Kenneth's 6th stage, I did not note mind states; I only did the direct mode practice. Direct mode and nothing else whatsoever. It didn't seem that anything else was necessary.

What is your understanding of the 6th stage and direct mode? Do you see some reason that noting mind states would be helpful?

Hey EndInSight,

Thanks for the response. I've watched the direct path videos Kenneth put out and played with him a little bit, so that is the entirety of my understanding of what is meant by Direct Mode. 6th stage as I understand it is when mindstates cease to be recognized as such and the only noticeable mind states are the brahma viharas. Any clarification on this would be useful as I find it really exciting/interesting stuff. I thought I had read in a couple practice journals on this board that people kept their attention on the body and noted mind states at the same time. Maybe it was misread or misunderstood. I also have a friend who recently began the practice of noting mind states while grounding in the body continuosly. I do not know if this would be useful. I haven't tried it yet. Thank you for your help End.

According to my understanding, at 6th stage, all gross emotions (e.g. anger, fear, etc.) are recognized to be experiences in the body.

I found that, when I thought I had attained this stage, that there were still subtle things that were perceived as mind states, but (if I looked appropriately) even those things could be clearly seen to be body states after-the-fact. I'm not sure how this fits into how things are supposed to play out, but I think it's a pretty fair characterization of how 6th stage works.

I never really thought about the brahmaviharas at the time (not my practice orientation) so I can't say much.

I can't say I remember (or ever knew) how noting is supposed to relate to this...but, if you can do direct mode without being distracted, that's all you need. It may help you to describe your particular implementation of and experiences with direct mode, as there can be subtleties about the practice that are easier to understand when talked about.

That makes sense. As I begin the practice in a couple weeks I plan on keeping a journal here so I can get more feedback. Thanks.

I my humble opinion it's a good idea to keep in mind that these "stages" are not necessarily linear (just like the map is not the territory). The mind likes neat, concise and linear explanations of things but in reality, in practice, people report various experiences, states, realizations and insights that come in many different orders. while many things on the path are similar from one practitioner to another no one's path is the same as another person's, so lining them up in a specific order like 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 is not the way they tend to happen. They have not happened quite that way for me or most of the people I know, for example.

Trying to keep it real

I would be curious to hear how you relate stages 6-7-8 to your own practice and experience.

Well, I kept an online diary here - I was actually the first poor soul Kenneth sold on that concept - for several years. But I'm not making my practice public any longer for various reasons, EIS. As you know I do share things once in a while but I'm also convinced that at a certain point the sharing can become counter productive. I mentioned the non-linear nature of the stages for that reason, actually, because there is a tendency for folks to see them as a progression, from "low" to "high," that can lead to a certain competitiveness that I see as not skillful and causes some tension.

"Hello,

I am curious how those who have attained 6th stage in Kenneth's model have gotten there. Kenneth's suggestion was to watch his direct path videos, but from a cursory glance it seems he doesn't note mind states during the videos which is something I've noticed yogis report doing while working towards 6th stage.
- Bill"

Hi Bill,

I did two things to get disembedded from the unwholesome mind states that is Kenneth's 6th Stage:

Noting continuously mind states and seeing as clearly as possible what kinds of body sensations are associated with those states.

Being vulnerable, completely opening up to the emotions and using Direct Mode to keep an unwavering attention on the body. Once the handle is found, it is possible to keep the switch on all the time. When the connection between the unwholesome mind states and the unpleasant vibrations is established, the mind drops them as unnecessary and harmful.

Hey Antero,

Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to the post. I have read your journal and found it informative and inspiring. What is the handle you are referring to? Whenever you have the time...

Bill

"Hey Antero,

Thank you for taking the time to read and respond to the post. I have read your journal and found it informative and inspiring. What is the handle you are referring to? Whenever you have the time...

Bill"

Kenneth taught me to approach Direct Mode more or less this way:

Pay attention how your neck is supporting your head. It is not a stable situation and your neck muscles are constantly making small adjustments to keep the head at the point of equilibrium. These changes are felt in the neck as continuously changing tensions that we are not normally aware of. So it is a pretty dynamic system.

Now use that same type of awareness on your entire body. Feel it from within as a system that is never in equilibrium. There is a constant flux of vibrations and tensions happening all the time. Whenever you feel a peak of tension starting to form somewhere, your attention is already there and the balance is automatically restored soon enough. With practice you unconsciously find the handle to this state and it becomes 'sticky'

What was causing this tension or movement to arise in the first place? If you become conscious of your mind states, it is easy to see how all that fluxing is a manifestation of your ever changing mind states.

Once you see in real time the never ending sequence of rapidly shifting states and that it is possible to experience euphoria and irritation side by side within a second, it is really hard to continue believing them. Seeing them like that will bound to result in dropping them for good.

Much thanks for the detailed reply. This is useful.

Bill