When did things change for you?

I am here, and practicing, because I want to be happy, and I want to help others to be happy as well. Most of my life, my own problems made me more of a burden than a help. I know not to expect some kind of miracle cure from meditation practice, but did any of you start off with problems that made you more of a burden to others, and then through insights or whatever you reached the point where people noticed that you had changed, that you were different, a help rather than a burden?

I guess I need to know that it is possible ... if it is. If so, what was your practice? What happened that helped you? How did it effect your life and relationships?

Hey J,

I came to meditation practice at the age of 23. I am in recovery and had been clean for about 6 months at that point. I was working on a 2nd step which has to do with coming to believe in a power greater than ourselves. I found that the typical theistic way the people around me were applying this principle wasn't working for me, and so I began to explore different spirtual ideas and practices. Meditation made sense to me in a way I didn't understand and after an ankle injury sustained playing basketball kept me out of work for a couple of weeks I began to sit, heavily. During one of those days sitting I had a prolonged experience that forever altered the course of my life. In trying to describe it later I can only say that it was a prolonged experience of the deepest unconditional peace and love that arrived unexpectedly and stayed for a whole afternoon. I had the overwhelming feeling that things had always been okay, were okay and always would be and there was a divine sense of presence in everything I looked at. During those hours I felt that the way I saw the world usually was skewed and that I had been allowed a glimpse into reality as it truly is. For a period of several months following my mood was lifted, my confidence was high and I felt life was great. I'm sure I pissed some people off with my arrogance, but people remarked frequently that I was doing very well and they were happy for me, particularly my family who had suffered on the sidelines while I'd spent the last decade strung out. For most of my life the reality of other people and their feelings was a footnote, but after beginning to follow the breath I really began to have genuine feelings of compassion for those close to me and those I disliked. Following this spritual high there was a period of several years of darkness.

The compliments stopped coming in. This would've been what is referred to as the dark night here, but I didn't have the language for it and just assumed I was going crazy. In some ways I was worse than before I began the practice and my relationship with my girlfriend of five years was a mess and eventually deteriorated at the end of this period. She remarked frequently that I had changed, though not in the positive way you are inquiring about. So the intial insights that had made me more pleasant as they deepened seemed to make me less pleasant although there were still people I cared about who still cared about me and were willing to wade through the darker waters beside me. After hitting stream entry, and especially after the last shift, a lot of the negative behaviors and feelings have grown milder and I find it easy to get along with others most of the time and less concerned about myself and my holy grail of enlightenment, though I'm still succeptible to thoughts/feelings/behaviors that stand in direct opposition to the deep, lasting insights I've had. If you are curious about specific practices, the brahma viharas are useful for some (I'm one) to bring a greater sense of connection and warmth into our lives. But I haven't found a short cut or a trap door that completely eliminates my past, although I tried, so one way or another I've had to deal with it. I worked for years in mental health services and work now with a population either dying or in quick decline so I've found metta to be particularly useful. The other thing is the recognition that when I'm truly present kindness is already there. I think you will have to find your own way here through experimenting and seeing what works for you. Maybe it isn't even meditation. That said, I think your goal as originally stated is a wonderful one and I sincerely hope you find what you are looking for. Be well.

Bill

My case is not particularly extreme, but for what it's worth I did have a tendency to anxiety and depression most of my life. I had a particularly bad patch in my mid thirties (if I recall) and did several years of 3x a week therapy and took anti-depressants for a while. That helped immensely. I still had a sort of baseline anxiety but not enough to interfere with normal life, job, relationships, etc. in an overt way. I hit another bad spot in my early 40s when I had to deal with a number of deaths in a short period of time. I did another round of therapy, and then began meditating. The meditation helped enormously, even just after a few months, and after a year or so I really never had that background anxiety much anymore at all. That has made my relationships with certain people far less stressful and more relaxed; I am more patient, more tolerant, happier, less chronically stressed, etc. I'm not sure if I had come into meditation without the other treatments if it would have worked the same way - maybe it would have been more difficult to meditate, maybe it would have taken longer to make progress; I can't know. I'm a big fan of using whatever methods work to deal with life's hardships, including medical, psychological, spiritual, etc. and not being stuck on the idea that only one method is right.

Thank you both for sharing your stories with me. I am at the point where I'm starting to think "This isn't working" and "I'm just wasting my time". I have tried everything imaginable over the decades, including meditation many times before, so it is easy for me to give up.

I have been reading a lot of good news about meditation lately, from scientific journals and books, and that led me to give this a real effort. The studies show real differences, and note real improvement after so many hours of meditation -- sometimes hundreds, sometimes thousands of hours.

I just need the encouragement to stick it out, and not throw away my practice when I feel I've had a setback, or when I feel nothing is happening.

Wanting to give up tends to be a recurring part of the process (probably in most any approach or training, not just meditation). Hanging in there when "nothing seems to be working" often takes a kind of faith or trust. There are often periods when there's a sort of alchemy going on in the background that you cannot perceive. There's no need to try to find it. It will find you when it is ready. ie it's a little like restraining yourself from constantly opening the oven door to check on the cake. Just let it cook. Meditation brings periods of feeling good, periods of feeling like nothing is happening, and even periods of feeling bad. That's all part of the process. The days you feel good are not more of a sign of progress than the other days. In the long run sticking it out through these changing cycles leads to deep and long-term benefits.

For me, as my practice went on, I found that there were ways in which my views and insecurites were a "burden" in my own relationships. I realized a lot of the ways in which I was already self-critical just fed those parts of me that were "a burden". This discovery happens over and over. Parts of me are better than I believed; parts of me are worse; the process of discovering this goes on and on.

But the main thing was, most of my ideas about how I acted in the world, and how I was seen by others, had been wrong all along.

If you feel that you are a burden to others, and not a help, and you would like to turn that around, then be open to changing your ideas about yourself. The way that you evaluate yourself will change through practice. Once you "drain the swamp" around your own self-judgements, you start to see how you are connected to the people around you in unimaginably complex ways, how every little action and choice has the potential for immeasurable good. Much more is already right than wrong.

You began by saying "I want to be happy, and I want to help others to be happy as well". I think that means that you probably have an innate generosity that is far more visible to others than it is to you. It's a great motivation, and in fact, it's not two things- when you are happy, the happiness of those around you increases. [continued]

As for "what happened that helped me", I think a big turning point was coming here on KFD, and learning about the Progress of Insight, after years of meditating, and realizing that the practice I had done ALREADY HAD changed me, even though I didn't know it. That was a huge boost in faith and motivation- I started to see how all the corny stuff about metta, impermanence, and no-self WAS ACTUALLY HOW THE UNIVERSE WORKED and not just an interesting theory.

The other thing was that I stopped feeling guilty about having tried out all sorts of different practices and not stuck with one to the end. You actually have to try out different approaches, freshen up your motivation over and over, and keep your interest engaged when doubt starts to drag you down. Ignore the finger-wagging that tells you to only watch the breath, or only note, or do 100000 prostrations before you do insight meditation, or whatever. If you stay curious, remain always ready to trade in your fixed ideas, and stay true to your mission to find a way to be happy, then there is no backsliding possible.

@ Rob_mtl - and I was going to add in my reply above, "don't jump from method to method"!! But you point out that sometimes changing practice can be refreshing, and that sure can be true. I'm certainly not of the mind that there is only one kind of practice which works for all people. But sometimes people keep changing what they are doing as an evasion, trying to avoid the parts of meditation that can be boring or hard, when what is needed is focus and persistence. On the other hand you don't have to be a masochist! Practices like jhanas, metta practice, devotional prayer and others can bring about a sense of happiness, bliss or comfort that can help carry a person through difficulties. I thought your description of how that worked for you was very inspiring.

I may have over-stated. In my case, I tended be "over-tight" in my practice rather than "over-slack", and spent a certain amount of time pursuing one school or technique with ideological fervour, and then using it as a stick to beat myself with due to my own sense of unworthiness. Then years later, I realized that every one of them had been working on me, each in their way.

So I'd qualify that and say that the important part of my paragraph was "I stopped **feeling guilty about** having tried out all sorts of different practices" I think you can get sidetracked if you constantly fall back into feeling like "I failed that time, and I must now try harder". We might be saying the same thing, from two directions

Thanks Rob, it is nice to think that maybe all of the effort I put in over several decades wasn't a complete waste, and that maybe feeling like a burden to others is based on incorrect judgments. It is also encouraging to think that coming here could be a turning point for my practice. Without support it was too easy to "roll up the mat" and quit, or flit around aimlessly hoping for instant gratification in some new practice.

This time I'm not in a hurry. It would be nice to have a map, and to know where I am and what to do. However, I don't want to stubbornly keep working at some practice that isn't right for me. My kasina practice feels right, but I'm uncertain about my insight practice. Noting seems very popular here, but it feels more natural to me to remain silent and watch everything. It could be that in time, noting would feel natural as well.

What I need is the same boost in faith and motivation you mentioned. I know about the Progress of Insight, but I can't place myself on the map. I can see how I have been through everything up to fruition. I don't remember ever blipping out or anything like that. What confuses me is that while I seem to have gone through A&P based on the progression, I don't really remember any flashing lights or explosions either. I can recall times where everything became lighted from within, but that lasted for days, maybe weeks, not a few minutes or seconds. The Dark Night periods were certainly unmistakable.

Specific types of experiences are often related to the kind of practice you are doing. People who don't do the specific kind of noting practice popular among some here don't tend to notice (or perhaps don't experience) the blipping cessations. It doesn't matter, unless that is your specific practice and you want to keep track of it. "Everything being lighted from within for days" is typical of some A&P experiences and not dissimilar to mine and those of some friends I've talked to. For those in religious frameworks it might feel like a connection with the Divine, or a mystical experience. This kind of experience can happen repeatedly over years, especially if one gives up ones practice repeatedly during the discouraging dark nights (something that is not uncommon to do, because it can feel like you are backsliding or floundering).

Well I certainly had several profound mystical experiences, but never as the result of any formal practice. Those experiences sent me in search of an explanation. The Dark Nights sent me in search of deliverance. I haven't had those divine mystical experiences or the utter living hell of Dark Nights for a long time, but I do seem to be cycling through equanimity, anger, anxiety, despair, hopelessness, then back to equanimity again. It isn't fun for me, or for the people in my life. I don't want to spend all my time and energy managing myself.

Anything that works is good enough for me. The more clear, certain and efficient, the better.

I'm here to

Well, it sounds like you have visited all the points on the "Progress of Insight" map up to Equanimity, without necessarily having put names to them. If that thought can give you any faith in the value of your own insights, then take hold of that faith- you have, in fact, earned it.

But if you can't force yourself to believe it, that's OK too. In that case, take your doubt as an object- note doubt when it arises in your mind.

Noting is one kind of insight practice, but not the only kind. If you're practicing with commitment, then you are gaining insights. You must have gained insights- that's how you got here. So if you have a practice that motivates you to continue and feels natural, then keep that as your main practice. There's the old joke about exercise that says "the best kind of exercise is the one that you'll do". It's true

The thing is, you still have the Dark Night stuff to work with. Somehow, you have to find a way to pierce those unpleasant feelings that you still take as "your" feelings happening to "you". So, you might want to take a side-practice, something that you don't necessarily do when you're formally meditating. Some ideas that I like to use:

(1) Contemplate that these unpleasant feelings and experiences don't seem to come from anywhere and don't seem to have a cause. They're objectless- there's fear, but without anything to be afraid of. There's sadness, but without something to be sad about. There are physical knots of tension, without something to make me tense.

When I say "contemplate", I mean, try these out on your present-moment moods and mind-states, and see if they're true.

[continued]

(2) When you're doing something not too engaging, like walking down the street, just ask yourself: Is there anything about me, my opinions, my view of things around me, how warm or cold I feel, what I see in my mind's eye at this instant- is there ANYTHING about me that is the same as it was even 2 seconds ago?

Move towards contemplating your mind-states the same way, including the dark-nighty ones that are painful. But don't just jump right into them, because you will be too tempted to get caught up in the story that those dark-nighty feelings want to tell themselves.

(3) A lot of people recommend metta practice to arouse something positive during rough patches. I never had much luck with that, for one reason- I just couldn't help thinking "I hope this will make me feel better fast! Hey, it's not working!" But that might just be me so look into the various ways teachers approach metta and see if any ring true with you. And if you find it inspiring that sort of "I have to fix this NOW!" attitude, then just note that attitude.

I don't know if any of this will resonate for you, but I'll throw it all out there, to help fuel your own practice ideas

Thanks Rob. When I work with my feelings, they all seem to break down to what are actually neutral sensations. The sensations set off a chain of thought, the sensation is labeled "bad" and a feedback loop is energized -- that is the me, suffering. If I stay with just the actual sensation and do not allow the label, then there is no chain reaction of thought energized. If I stay focused on it, it really is just a sensation. The sensation is actually neutral. Of course, I can only do this on a good day. Often I just get caught up in the whole miserable network of thought, starring the me, and suffer.

I have never truly given metta practice a try. I suppose I have always been in a rush to get somewhere, get some insight, etc. Metta seemed like an nice extra, but not *real* practice. Lately I have heard otherwise, so maybe I should really give it shot and see what happens.

Thanks for the idea!

Hey J- Thanks for the insight at the beginning of your above post. The first time I really saw that deeply it knocked me over, though I still forget it at times. Seems like a big one. Metta may be useful or it may not. It is generally not talked about much in the pragmatic dharma community because it is not believed to directly facilitate what is described as enlightenment or awakening in the community, but my own experience leads me to believe that there is more than one type of awakening and to favor one over the other is to forget half the path. Although metta is typically listed as a concentration practice it also brings its own insights which may be helpful. Thank you for your contributions. They've been useful for me.

Bill

Metta practice is very interesting. It does tend to make you feel nice, which can be motivating during hard times. It's good for everyone else in a magical way, if you believe in that sort of thing (optional). It's good for everyone else in a mundane way in that if you feel better you tend to be nicer to other people. And if you do the practice where you send metta first to people you love, then to neutral people, and then to people you dislike (which is a not-uncommon version of the practice), then you also start to confront the artificial barrier of this vs that, question the categories of things you make in life, and become more aware of grasping and aversion. And that's all good stuff for insights.