A wonderful exposition of Dependent Origination

Hi Chris,

Edit: Yes.

Each to his/her own.

Nick

"One can also use certain arupa jhana aspects (space, consciousness, nothingness, signlessness) as 'anchors' to juxtapose the grossest sensations against them to also interfere with the sequence that leads to the arising of 'me-ness'. This is the 'actualising jhana' approach i used to get the post-MCTB 4th path shift which resulted in a huge shift from experiencing full blown affect and 'me-ness' as before. It left a some 'residue' though to deal with (shadow being). - Nikolai"

Nick,
I know this is probably murky territory, but can you say what your current practice consists off, with this residue?

Actualising jhanas and sutta jhana for rupas. Residue can be actualized no matter how subtle it gets. If it seems like it is something that could be 'reborn' then it can be actualized in my experience.

Do you get any of these side-effects which Antero has described?
(Waking up not remembering who he was, etc.)

"Do you get any of these side-effects which Antero has described?
(Waking up not remembering who he was, etc.)"

No. Just more peace and less residue.

Ah.
What do you mean by Sutta Jhana?

Unlike MCTB jhanas which sort of just popped up as counterparts to certain nanas post 1st path, what I'd call sutta jhana has nothing to do with the eye focus or mental focus like the donut thing for the 3rd jhana or the single pointedness of the 1st.

Instead of directing the mind into one of the jhanas/nanas that became available at will post 1st path, I follow the anapana sati sutta instructions in the sequence they are given and max out pleasure and rapture via full bodied awareness till any vedana that seems to be acting as support for any mental overlay 'residual' is seen as just vedana in and of itself ceasing its support for the mentioned mental overlay. The mental overlay residual will drop away leaving nothing but the jhana factors as the ongoing experience. No sense of residual 'me-ness' being the jhana nor 'in' the jhana nor making the jhana happen.
The big difference between the jhanas I had instant access to post 1st and these jhanas I'd call sutta jhanas, is the complete full bodied awareness is present in each and there is an active relaxing of the craving/clinging/becoming process via calming mental and physical fabrications. They have nothing to do with the eye focus nor mental focus like the jhana/nana versions.

The samadhanga sutta instructions is the basis for it. www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.028.than.html

"The Blessed One said: "Now what, monks, is five-factored noble right concentration? There is the case where a monk '” quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities '” enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal."

"One can also use certain arupa jhana aspects (space, consciousness, nothingness, signlessness) as 'anchors' to juxtapose the grossest sensations against them to also interfere with the sequence that leads to the arising of 'me-ness'. This is the 'actualising jhana' approach i used to get the post-MCTB 4th path shift which resulted in a huge shift from experiencing full blown affect and 'me-ness' as before. It left a some 'residue' though to deal with (shadow being)."

wow, thanks for elaborating this so clearly. i have been doing this sort of intuitively, in my practice for some time now.

when I do this there is the subtle stillness of "space" and then the globs of more gross sensations, that are usually or were previously inferred as "Self" but are now seen through as empty, noself, impermanent sensations.

doing this to me is not much different than what chris describes, as seeing the sensations that make up self as empty. is selfing really occuring when insight is present in this way? is this what is sometimes described as sensations self liberating? can anyone really point out the major differences between a self not arising vs. seeing through the sensations that formerly were inferred as self?

edit:

my stab at this is that at one point in my practice there was the collapse of any center of me-ness, and there was just the stream or holographic sort of pattern of sensations, yet no sense of separation between the center of me-ness and sensations. in this there was in the seeing only the seen. can / should this be contrasted with juxtaposing sensations with jhana factors? are we still intentionally participating in selfing when we choose to juxtapose factors?

thanks for more great discussion, everyone!

metta!

Justin

"Instead of directing the mind into one of the jhanas/nanas that became available at will post 1st path, I follow the anapana sati sutta instructions in the sequence they are given and max out pleasure and rapture via full bodied awareness till any vedana that seems to be acting as support for any mental overlay 'residual' is seen as just vedana in and of itself ceasing its support for the mentioned mental overlay. "

I also have found that following through the tetrads step by step is very beneficial, and almost always leads to a cessation for me. At least what I currently think are cessations... ;]

"No sense of residual 'me-ness' being the jhana nor 'in' the jhana nor making the jhana happen. "

This sounds like what I was trying to describe in the edit in post #32 . [=

"doing this to me is not much different than what chris describes, as seeing the sensations that make up self as empty. is selfing really occuring when insight is present in this way? is this what is sometimes described as sensations self liberating? can anyone really point out the major differences between a self not arising vs. seeing through the sensations that formerly were inferred as self?"

For myself there was a big difference. It may not be for others. I spent just under a year at MCTB 4th path doing much the same thing as Chris describes, watching the patterns of phenomena giving off the mentally felt sense of 'me-ness' or presence arise and pass seeing their empty nature.

It wasn't until directed to play around directly with cause and effect that things started to really shift permanently though. What I mean by playing around with cause and effect is looking at the causes for the arising of that mentally felt sense of 'me-ness' or presence (as at times the me-ness was so dispersed if only gave off a sense of presence or location in the world) and playing around with different angles of discernment until the cause for its very cessation was also seen. This is what the actualizing jhana approach is good for.

continued..

The juxtaposing of the gross sensations (acting as a support/factor for the arising of of a mental overlay of 'self') with the arupa aspects of space, nothingness etc. would cause the gross sensations to stop being seen though the coloured glasses of the mental overlay but be seen as vedana in and of itself. This would then cease its role as a support for the mental overlay of 'me-ness'.

One could also re-enforce this discernment by seeing how empty, transient and impersonal such vedana and mental overlay is. This will interfere with the craving link in DO which is leaping off of vedana to give rise to that mental overlay of 'me-ness'. So perhaps there is a similarity between what Chris talks of. But perhaps also there is the difference in 'intention'. In my own case there was the direct intention to see the permanent cessation of the 'selfing'/becoming process via seeing its causes for arising as well as how its cessation came about. Doing this resulted in a path-like moment on two occasions which did lead to such permanent changes.

Intention would seem to be a key difference then. But as I did not take Chris' approach as far as it 'possibly' could go, perhaps seeing the 'selfing' process as empty long enough will be sufficient cause for its permanent cessation at some stage or other anyway even witout the intention to see it end. For myself though, the approach of actualizing jhanas was very direct and quick once I knew how it worked and it gelled with the intention I had.

"can / should this be contrasted with juxtaposing sensations with jhana factors? are we still intentionally participating in selfing when we choose to juxtapose factors?
"

In my own experience, juxtaposing the arupa aspects with the gross sensations (acting as a support/factor in the compounding of 'me-ness'), caused the whole process of compounding/fabricating the 'me-ness' to collapse. if there is no 'me-ness' in any form sublte or gross arising, then it is just 'seeing in the seen' etc by default. If you are aware of what the direct experience of a literal 'seeing in the seen etc' is like (with the complete absence of any 'me-ness' for certain periods) then you have a good blueprint as to what to look for when looking from varying angles when juxtaposing. I cannot say how the perfect angle is found as each person would have to explore and discern it themselves. A yogi would need to experiment with the juxtaposing until cause and effect is seen clearly. Having the previous experience of 'seeing in the seen' (sans 'me-ness as part of the experience), one can rely on that to inform one of the perfect discerning angle to look from.

In my own experiencing with this approach, I was intentionally participating in the deconstruction and de-compounding of the selfing process, not its arising. Although one can do that too to gain insight into how it does arise in order to know what to stop doing to cause its cessation. Once the cause for such arising is seen, it can be dropped.

"my stab at this is that at one point in my practice there was the collapse of any center of me-ness, and there was just the stream or holographic sort of pattern of sensations, yet no sense of separation between the center of me-ness and sensations. in this there was in the seeing only the seen. can / should this be contrasted with juxtaposing sensations with jhana factors? are we still intentionally participating in selfing when we choose to juxtapose factors?
"

malt: Did this experience bring about any permanent changes for you? How long ago was this? What has progressed since then? What do you see remains to be done now?

Do you ever work to recreate this experience?

"In my own experience, juxtaposing the arupa aspects with the gross sensations (acting as a support/factor in the compounding of 'me-ness'), caused the whole process of compounding/fabricating the 'me-ness' to collapse.

In my own experiencing with this approach, I was intentionally participating in the deconstruction and de-compounding of the selfing process, not its arising. "

Hey Nick!

I agree that juxtaposing, can lead to collapsing compounding. How the perfect angle / perspective is found, interesting... perhaps one could say that there is some subtle mental tension or wavering in the juxtaposition, and through experimenting with this wavering one can eventually get it to collapse. once that process is seen, then it can be reproduced, and the perspective, or angle is know and can be recollected as reference.

Would it be fair to say that, participating in the deconstruction of the selfing process, is dependent on and occurs within the selfing process? Eventually of course, the whole process implodes, and selfing is dropped.

Regarding intention, it seems to me that the craving / clinging and aversion links end up being disrupted ( with proper conditions set up ) and:

-there is the collapsing of selfing from dropping of resistance to what is through intention of acceptance / surrender.

-there is the collapsing of selfing from dropping of craving through intention of relinquishment.

It appears to me that variations of both intentions can be used to interrupt DO to drop selfing.

When following the anapanasati sutta, this is like setting up the conditions for the collapse, then the relinquishment intention results in unbinding.

edited: clarity

"malt: Did this experience bring about any permanent changes for you? How long ago was this? What has progressed since then? What do you see remains to be done now?

Do you ever work to recreate this experience?

"

Hey Orasis!

Yeah, there seem to be permanent changes from this experience. It occured in early May of 2011.

I had been practicing for 2+ hrs / day since early March, and doing lots of mindfulness throughout the day, so I built up a lot of momentum. Then, I was just sitting outside on one of the first warm sunny days, following the breath, and staring at the ground, and I went through these shifts of perspective until the sense of self dropped.

Immediately afterwards, for the whole summer, I played with very easy and fast access to jhana that I didn't have before. More recently, I seem to be cycling faster and faster. Since then depression and anxiety I was experiencing seem to have dropped off significantly.

As far as what remains to be done, I feel like there's room for improvement in my practice on all axes, but particularly in doing more vipassana noting and seeing these things more clearly and precisely. I have been doing more 3rd gear type practices over the last several months, which feels more "right" or natural, but I am starting to get back into noting.

metta guys! *gratitude* for discussion

Justin

"[23] Opponent: [No!] The Buddha's teaching of the path aims at showing origination and cessation, not sunyata! Reply: To experience the two as mutually exclusive is a mistake."

Good ol' Nagarjuna

www.fodian.net/world/70hsl.htm

it is always interesting to review the two truths doctrine, and compare relative vs absolute teachings...

"Regarding intention, it seems to me that the craving / clinging and aversion links end up being disrupted ( with proper conditions set up ) and:

-there is the collapsing of selfing from dropping of resistance to what is through intention of acceptance / surrender.

-there is the collapsing of selfing from dropping of craving through intention of relinquishment.

It appears to me that variations of both intentions can be used to interrupt DO to drop selfing.

When following the anapanasati sutta, this is like setting up the conditions for the collapse, then the relinquishment intention results in unbinding.

edited: clarity"

The intentions/dispositions I use are:
- Willlingness to surrender
- Willingness to help anyone within my perception, harmoniously.
- Willingness to not keep anything.
- Willingness to be as honest as possible.

At the same time I juxtapose tension and arupa jhana factors, as Nick describes.

Yesterday the sense of self dropped and, while doing the dishes, I felt as if my hands were washing the dishes automatically. I still need to do more work though.

Very grateful for being able to practice with all the knowledge provided at KFD, DhO and the HP.

Another plug for this video. The stuff about mental/physical tension makes a load of sense to me, and it's something I've found benefit practicing with recently. Plus I think it chimes wiht a lot of the direct mode that Kenneth teaches.