Stream Entry Poll

For Stream Enterers, how much formal meditation were you doing when you popped? It may be difficult to categorize, depending on how much time you're noting off the cushion maybe, but I'm curious as to a rough ballpark of what it seems to take. Like Tarin Greco said it took him 9 days on retreat, that might be up to 16 hours a day x 9 days, which sounds pretty daunting to me.

Bonus question: on the Myers Briggs test (many online versions), do you test as a T or F (thinking or feeling)?

And for non-stream enterers, like me, what has been your biggest push(es)?

For me, probably 7 days x 3 hours a day, and I'm definitely a T.

Just a data point, not advice:

My approach had been a lifestyle approach rather than a cushion time approach. When I popped things started building over the course of a week from 30% of the day being mindful to nearly 100% mindful over a 24 hour period. Then with just a couple of short ultra-fast noting sessions my mind found that it couldn't stop noting until eventually the insight hit. So for me, it really felt like a combination of ripeness and momentum.

From my journal:

"My total cushion time has been 20-30 hours - probably only 2-3 hours on jhanas and 10 hours high power noting fueled by Piracetam. The vast majority of my practice was just recognizing awareness as often as possible. While walking, usually 20 minutes a day, I would spend 80-90% of my time aware of what was arising in the moment. Six months ago, I might recognize awareness 10 times in a day, for just a few seconds at a time. It started slow, but eventually hit an exponential growth that culminated at the nearly 24/7 peak."

5th day of Goenka course: 10 hrs/day on cushion, plus continual mindfulness as possible off cushion, including several hours of broad awareness in bed before truly falling sleep. (And it happened in bed, not on the cushion.)

I'm a "T". I suspect there are lots of NTs on this board!

Hello Eric,

I too remember reading that and thinking "that's too much", and thinking too that I wouldn't be able to hit SE til retreat or some such. I had been reading Daniel Ingram's book and Kenneth's writing on the stages and noticed that both of them talked about the trap of losing momentum at the Equanimity stage so when I hit equanimity I made sure to sit even more even though life seemed to be great off the cushion. I had been at equanimity for 3 weeks or so and was sitting about 2 hrs. a day, then for 1 or 2 days(I don't remember exactly) I sat for probably 4-6 hours and that's when SE happened. I got thrown off a couple times by the feeling that something huge was about to happen, stopped noting to wait for the big thing and then nothing happened. When it happened I kept noting even when the excitement and anticipation came on. But, everybody's different. That's just what worked for me.

Oh, and F. INFP to be exact. Why the T or F question? Just curious.

Bill

" I had been reading Daniel Ingram's book and Kenneth's writing on the stages and noticed that both of them talked about the trap of losing momentum at the Equanimity stage so when I hit equanimity I made sure to sit even more even though life seemed to be great off the cushion. I had been at equanimity for 3 weeks or so and was sitting about 2 hrs. a day, then for 1 or 2 days(I don't remember exactly) I sat for probably 4-6 hours and that's when SE happened. "

Sounds *very* familiar. Yes, that advice about actually cranking up the intensity at equanimity rather than easing off is really important. Post SE, I had forgotten this, had eased off in the comfort of newly achieved EQ, then I re-encountered that advice on this board, and that encouraged me to continue to push my off-cushion noting and to not only hold my normal 2 hours firm, but sit extra beyond -- accumulating maybe 6 additional hours over a weekend -- to hit another path. No 'exciting sense that something big was going to happen' that many talk about, just firm confidence that this was the time to keep up the momentum. [Disclaimer: self-diagnosed, not confirmed by a pro, so possible self-delusion ]

"Oh, and F. INFP to be exact. Why the T or F question? Just curious.
"

Just wondering if T's might have a harder time of it.

Thanks all for the feedback so far!

INTP here. I think I was sitting twice a day when I got stream entry; an hour in the morning, and another 45-60 minutes in the afternoon. I had some periods of more intensive (~4 hours a day) sitting for a few days at a time in the weeks/months leading up to it.

Hamilton project has some interesting stuff on this if you haven't seen it already:
thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2010/11/...ing-and-very_12.html
thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2010/12/...mity-and-stream.html

and the "From Equanimity to Stream Entry " podcast:
owenbecker.com/podcast/Hamilton-Episode9.mp3
owenbecker.com/podcast/Hamilton-Episode10.mp3

Modalnode- I tend to romanticize and so the exciting feel that something BIG was going to happen soon may well have been my own projection about what SE would be like and not something inherent to that stage.

Eric- Thanks. Yeah, I recently wondered if my inclination to be led by feelings might be part of the difficulty of the current practice I'm working at. Interesting.

30 mins in the morning and 60 mins in evening, With some extra evening minutes in the end.
No retreats.

ISTP

Hey there,
I may be something of an oddball, but as far as I can tell, and with the best of my mapping ability, I crossed from DN to Eq sometime around Sept 2009, and still haven't hit stream entry. So, here's another data point:
While in Equanimity and pre-stream entry, I've done about seven 10-day retreats, a 20-day retreat, and a 40-day retreat. So, I guess the biggest push was 40-days, all day. Although, I wasn't doing "noting" practice for those 40-days, but I was giving it everything I had with the practice I was doing. On top of that, I've done a lot of shorter retreats, at-home retreats, daily practice, and probably a total of a couple thousand hours on the cushion in formal meditation. Combine that with lots of noting throughout the day and at night in bed.
So, I guess maybe it's different for different people.

I believe I got Stream Entry during part 2 of the most recent three month course at IMS. Day 31 in the morning was when I experience my gap.

I was sitting around 7 - 9 hours a day, with walking in between. 18 hours of mindfulness per day.

Very strong T.


I just wrote a delayed report of my experience on my practice notes page: kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/45...for+Stream?offset=40 - and would appreciate some feedback or thoughts if anyone has the time to read it.

Thanks

"So, I guess maybe it's different for different people."

I think my datapoints are atypical here. Having done at least a dozen 7 or 7+ day retreats, scores of all day sittings, and 2 to 4 day retreats. Did a 3 month retreat at the IMS, followed by 3 years in a teepee or a cabin in the woods. Later, as a householder, sat at least an hour every day for 10 years. After practicing 2+ years at KFD, I'm finally getting how I've been cycling around A&P, dissolution, DK and some equanimity for years without understanding what was going on or what best to do about it. I believe SE is going to be in the mix now that I understand better how to practice. If there is a formula for SE, going to a bunch of retreats and living in the woods doesn't seem to be sufficient.

It doesn't sound like we have a very strong correlation between SE and putting in a massive amount of time on the cushion. There's the quality axis as well, right? Anyone have any thoughts on valuable tweaks to their practice that helped in attaining SE?

"It doesn't sound like we have a very strong correlation between SE and putting in a massive amount of time on the cushion. There's the quality axis as well, right? Anyone have any thoughts on valuable tweaks to their practice that helped in attaining SE?


"

Yeah, the qualitative axis is no doubt important, and I'd like to hear more. At the same time I'm mildly worried by my own tendency to succumb to pointer du jour disease.

As a data cruncher, I'd have to point out we simply don't have much of a sample at this time. So far, it could be a bimodal distribution, for example. At any rate if we could sort out the differences between shorter timers vs. longer timers that would be good.

Yeah, it's funny. I am new(ish) to this and pre-SE but there seems to be a wide variety of people and paces. Some that can seemingly breeze through the stages of insight very rapidly with no retreats and little time on the cushion, and then there are people who go on many intensive retreats and seem to progress slower than the others. There is obviously vice versa too. But what is it that makes the difference?

Now obviously this isn't backed by any research at all. However, the common thing I find when looking through some of the very inspirational (to me) practice logs, is that the people who seem to breeze through the stages, had or have some form of strong concentration as a base practice. That, combined with a very clear and well accomplished teacher is what seems to allow people to just litteraly fly through the stages.

I am just thinking out loud...ignore me if this makes no sense.

"It doesn't sound like we have a very strong correlation between SE and putting in a massive amount of time on the cushion. There's the quality axis as well, right? Anyone have any thoughts on valuable tweaks to their practice that helped in attaining SE?


"

disclaimer: my comments may not be helpful for pre A&P yogis.

I am still hesitant to claim attainment, since I haven't been diagnosed by a teacher, but I do have strong reasons to conclude that I got a path in may 2011. I'll venture to add a few key elements that seemed to tip the scales for me. [=

1) Clear, simple instructions from a realized teacher... like Kenneth's! And the inspiration and belief that it's possible from a strong community where people share their success like this one can really motivate as well!

2) Not sure if this will commonly apply to others, but for me I had to tweak a few things in my practice. The most important was working on maintaining sustained contact of attention with the breath. In U Pandita's "In This Very Life" he talks about this, as "rubbing" the object with the attention. In my practice I was "noting" but the noting sometimes became more like a wrote process, instead of syncing with the actual experience in that moment. I started really making fast progress once I began applying GENTLE, but persistent contact / rubbing of attention to the breath. This contact seems to be really important in penetrating the object imho.

3) Concentration! I was doing TONS of concentration and since I was post A&P that was important, more great advice from KFD!

4) I spent a lot of time in the dukkha nyanas, so I had to learn to apply acceptance to my practice in order to make it to equanimity. Thanks for the advice to do so from KFD, again! *gratitude*

continued....

continued...

5) I was doing at least 2 hrs / day formal practice as well as powering mindfulness as much as possible all day long, during a period of semi self led retreat at home. Maintaining momentum with daily mindfulness practice was important for me.

6) My first A&P experience came from a psychedelic experience, when I first began doing vipassana noting seriously I think I did go through the early nyanas and A&P again, and had to sort of "review" and learn this territory over anyhow, but this may have helped with fast progress in my case, others' experience may differ...

7) Daniel's book, MCTB played an important role in my progress, as well as the maps helped me to fine tune my direction in practice. Continued investigation even in equanimity, and the intention of relinquishment / surrender can be key in later stages as well.

Well, there's a few key elements for me that seemed to have to come together for a path. =] I hope that someone finds this helpful!

metta and gratitude!

Justin

For me, it was a little over a year ago, and my practice was 1 hour a day, six days a week. I'd done a 3-day retreat about a year prior.

I would say the decisive change (after about 7 years of regular practice) was a kind of confidence that I gained from joining this community and realizing that I had always undervalued my prior experience. There were insights, and a level of concentration that I'd attained, but never realized it. Did I *have* to put in 7 years to get to this point? I don't think so. But I don't think I should have done a three-month retreat to "get it done sooner", either.

SE is an instantaneous thing, not a cumulative thing. You line up some conditions, others fall into place, and boom!

I think we're conditioned to think that things come because we "earn" them. Only after SE did I realize how much that idea was encoded inside me, and that whatever I did to "get" it had to do with dropping that notion of work-and-reward.

I feeI that I "get" the Christian doctrine of "grace" now, because liberation is a free gift, unearned and unearnable, a birthright, and we are only apart from it to the degree that we intrinsically believe we don't deserve it or have to "do" something to get it. Whatever we do to chip away at that entrenched conviction is worth gold.

"It doesn't sound like we have a very strong correlation between SE and putting in a massive amount of time on the cushion. There's the quality axis as well, right? Anyone have any thoughts on valuable tweaks to their practice that helped in attaining SE?


"

How does one drop the fetter of belief in a self (Pali: sakkāya-diṭṭhi)?

In my own experience it was noticing and noting the very experience that made up this belief in a 'self'. I know others like Kenneth and Owen have expressed reservation towards such a manner of noting as it is perceived as a slippery slope. I did not ever follow such advice but went right for the gullet. I explain what I did with noting practice here:

thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2011/01/...ng-part-1-nicks.html

If an image of a generic face or my own face arose in the mind's eye, i would note simply 'image'. If a localized area in the brain behind the eyes gave the impression that a 'self' was there, i would simply note 'sensations'. If a thought of 'I' arose, I would simply note 'thought'. This was the priority pre-path. It led not to simply experiencing a cessation but even before a cessation, a profound insight into what made up the selfing experience shifted this mind's paradigm and informed how I eventually practiced and made rapid progress.

Of course, if following different advice , then ignore this post.

"In my own experience it was noticing and noting the very experience that made up this belief in a 'self'. I know others like Kenneth and Owen have expressed reservation towards such a manner of noting as it is perceived as a slippery slope. ...This was the priority pre-path. It led not to simply experiencing a cessation but even before a cessation, a profound insight into what made up the selfing experience shifted this mind's paradigm and informed how I eventually practiced and made rapid progress.
"

Any idea why this is considered a slippery slope? I worry some about going against advice, but my practice seems to be most energized and engaged when I practice similar to how you describe. And seems to lose traction when I try not to do that. Any particular gotchas to watch out for with this kind of practice?

"How does one drop the fetter of belief in a self (Pali: sakkāya-diṭṭhi)?

In my own experience it was noticing and noting the very experience that made up this belief in a 'self'. I know others like Kenneth and Owen have expressed reservation towards such a manner of noting as it is perceived as a slippery slope. I did not ever follow such advice but went right for the gullet. I explain what I did with noting practice here:

thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2011/01/...ng-part-1-nicks.html

If an image of a generic face or my own face arose in the mind's eye, i would note simply 'image'. If a localized area in the brain behind the eyes gave the impression that a 'self' was there, i would simply note 'sensations'. If a thought of 'I' arose, I would simply note 'thought'. This was the priority pre-path. It led not to simply experiencing a cessation but even before a cessation, a profound insight into what made up the selfing experience shifted this mind's paradigm and informed how I eventually practiced and made rapid progress.

Of course, if following different advice , then ignore this post. "

Thanks, Nick. I've been working with more investigation lately and it really seems helpful. In the clearest moments, I can see that all both physical and mental objects are arising at once. For brief moments, there's a break in the chain and it's all seen clearly as an empty process. Obviously, no true cessation yet, but I get the sense that, for me, investigation is important.

I can relate to this comment by malt quite a bit: "In my practice I was 'noting' but the noting sometimes became more like a wrote process, instead of syncing with the actual experience in that moment."

Seems related to lack of investigation.
And lastly, Eric's comment on pointer du jour was really funny!

"Any idea why this is considered a slippery slope? I worry some about going against advice, but my practice seems to be most energized and engaged when I practice similar to how you describe. And seems to lose traction when I try not to do that. Any particular gotchas to watch out for with this kind of practice?"

I did not experience any 'slippery slope'. So I can't really comment. I only experienced progress. I think Kenneth or Owen could tell you why they think it was a slippery slope.

I think that the slippery slope comes from some people thinking they can "kill" the self by actively doing this practice.

It seems like people who are successful in this approach use a much more gentle touch, more like an open curiousity toward how self is manifesting in the moment, as opposed to a seek and destroy mentality.

"It doesn't sound like we have a very strong correlation between SE and putting in a massive amount of time on the cushion. There's the quality axis as well, right? Anyone have any thoughts on valuable tweaks to their practice that helped in attaining SE?


"

As a long-timer, I would say there is definitely a quality axis, as my meditation seems to be higher quality now. But, it is called a "practice" and I think the way I got to higher quality meditation was through hours of practice.

What I did:

- Cultivated honesty to the point it became a lifestyle, a willingness to see phenomena without preferences, at all times. I specifically looked for desires, aversions and ways of becoming.
- Cultivated Serenity/Concentration and Mindfulness.
- Read everything I could to understand Dependent Origination.
- Practiced, practiced, practiced and then practiced some more. No retreats, just practicing at home, sitting, walking, while driving, and sometimes while in the company of people. I still practice like this.
- I did what Nick did too.
- I cultivated Bodhicitta before, during and after sitting.