Are You a Post A&P Yogi Who Notes Their Behind Off But Feels Stuck?

"Once a yogi, whether American, Asian, or otherwise, reaches the fourth ñana, it is imperative that the teacher recognize this and change the instruction from effort to concentration. A post 4th ñana yogi is in no danger of becoming "lost in concentration." He or she has all the tools to deconstruct whatever object presents itself to the mind. The important thing now is to access the relevant mental strata. These strata are accessed through concentration. There are various techniques to encourage the development of concentration. Two of my favorites are counting the breath from one to ten, and kasina practice."

via: kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Jhana+and+%C3%91ana

Thank you for posting this link. It's very interesting, but I'm a little confused. I've ignored jhanas and concentration practices completely, so clearly that needs to change. But how is Kenneth suggesting concentration be integrated with vipassana?

From the sound of it, this is a key teaching that is overlooked in most of the discussions I've followed here.

Thanks for this reminder, mumuwu. A question about kasina, how much staring can you do without hurting your eyes? When I've really been into kasina in the past (actually I like candle flame), I've been tempted to do it for an hour or 1.5 hours sometimes. And also get a little resistant to blinking enough, since that breaks the concentration a little bit. Usually my eyes feel fine, maybe a little strained on long ones, I've just been wondering about longer-term or cumulative effects.

I'm not sure regarding Kasinas as I didn't use them for more than maybe a half hour at a time. I was doing more of an anapanasatti approach.

Nick posted some really good instructions on the anapanasatti sutta and I highly recommend working with those if they make sense.

thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2011/12/...apanasati-sutta.html

Regarding Kasinas, maybe check out this post
thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2010/12/...le-flame-kasina.html

Hopefully someone else will chime in

I feel that noting develops my moment-to-moment concentration quite a bit in very deep sits.
How do you guys feel?

Agreed Yadid. For many people, noting is all you need. However, there are also Yogis who may need to try a different approach after hitting the A&P in order to get it done.

"I feel that noting develops my moment-to-moment concentration quite a bit in very deep sits.
How do you guys feel?"

For what it's worth, Kenneth had me work on this during my post 4th nana sits.

Basically it doesn't matter how you get concentrated -- noting or kasina or focusing on sensations of breath -- what matters is that at some point these practices will invoke "bliss-like pleasures" from the simplicity/effortlessness of the concentration. Kenneth suggests that rather than pushing those sensations aside and returning to the original meditation object, it's okay to take those bliss-sensations as the new object and "bathe in the bliss" "steep in it like a teabag" "cultivate it", etc. This is simply done by -- I guess I'll say for lack of a better term -- by "being aware and grooving" on the nice sensations. It creates a feedback loop, the more bliss the more you concentrate, the more you concentrate the more vivid the experience... and then experience gradually evolves from from initial joy, to more rapture-like pleasure, to airy bliss, to panaoramic equanimity. It does this all on its own, just by steeping in the bliss, because each version of bliss is more refined version than the one before.

For me, noting gets me very concentrated, especially when my thoughts are initially scattered. Focusing on the sensations of breathing works more quickly, but I need to be more focused initially or it doesn't get traction. I haven't done as much kasina work.

Hope this adds to the conversation!

One other point... It never makes sense to go looking for any experience during meditation.

If you think you are in a given nana, don't look for the next nana. The next nana is found found by looking at the CURRENT nana you are in. The way through the dark night is by looking into the experience of the dark night. Look into the experience deeply and compassionately and you will soften and see not just your limited experience of it, but the broader truth of it. We need the dark night to make us face thoughts and truths we would normally ignore. We often dwell on dark night experiences because we secretly hope we can "get rid" of those thoughts or truths about life and so we hold them as "a problem" instead of just a "thought" or "a fact of life". And interestingly, the way out is by becoming intimate with the raw sensations of the experience and have those leave a deep impression on the mind -- no action on our own part is appropriate or required, just being there for the experience in a very full way.

So, in my opinion, if you aren't getting any bliss right now in your meditation --- don't go looking for it. This is one of those practice instructions that is stage dependent. If you are moving pretty quickly through the A&P and are getting pleasurable vibrating sensations, it's good practice to explore those sensations.

Again, just my opinion, and I'll bet there are others!

I agree with your last sentiment, betawave.
In my experience, the DN is a problem because the thoughts content is being bought while the unpleasant physical sensations contribute to the overall gloomyness of the situation,
and when Equanimity starts to arises - one sees that all the problem isn't life, but the content of thoughts about life.
Catch my drift?

Right. It's ultimately paradoxical, so no expression is going to be exactly right, but... If you really experience the contents of your thoughts - if you don't ignore them, fully experience them, and fully experience even how you you by into them -- then, when it passes on it's own, you will have a very deep experience that they are just thoughts. It will happen with one dark night thought, then another, then the whole dark night has a new kind of flow... and suddenly, as Ron Crouch says, rather being IN it, you are looking AT it.

When I used to just use buddhism as a philosophy, I would argue with myself during the dark night and >say< or >think< these are just thoughts, they shouldn't bother me, I shouldn't buy into them. But that really doesn't work, it's just a philosophy. But when I really apply the practice, I have to acknowledge the actual existance of the experience, not deny it, not alter it, not try to get rid of it... and progress happens on its own.

"When I used to just use buddhism as a philosophy, I would argue with myself during the dark night and >say< or >think< these are just thoughts, they shouldn't bother me, I shouldn't buy into them. But that really doesn't work, it's just a philosophy. But when I really apply the practice, I have to acknowledge the actual existance of the experience, not deny it, not alter it, not try to get rid of it... and progress happens on its own."

This still happens to me once in a while (especially when tired). My personal antidote for these confusing philosophy/expectations-meet-reality thoughts is to tone down all thoughts by refocusing on concentration, then once the thoughts have dissipated, switch to to inclusive observation and surrender.

I have observed that Mahamudra Noting is a very similar process, just done in a much tighter iterative loop.