Direct pointing?

Is direct pointing a worthwhile supplement to practice? If so, what does it help one attain on the maps? It looks kind of like a way into stream entry, to the untrained eye. Is this the case? If not, where can it get you? Is liberation unleashed a good place to work with this?

I do not intend to stop my 3 speed and mahamudra practices, I would just like to have a well rounded tool box. I find sometimes I get lost while noting, and I would like some other practices to work with. I also feel like some more intense one-on-one work would be beneficial, and I'm an impoverished college student. This concept looks like it might be of some utility, but I'm pretty new to all of this. Would I be wasting time by adding direct pointing to my tools?

I suspect you might be at a point where you would do very well to intensively notice and observe your sense of aimlessness, boredom with current sitting, getting lost while noting, wishing you could have some cool intense experiences each time you sit but instead it's sort of dull etc.etc. These sorts of things are all actually normal parts of the cycles and just as important to pay total attention to as blissy bits and tremors and all that. It's not that other forms of practice aren't sometimes useful to different people, but the tone of your post and its relation to previous posts makes me suspect you are in a drifting, boring part of your meditation cycle and that's a good reason to force yourself to engage with it head on and stop wandering off to find something more entertaining or fun. Thoughts?

What you say is mostly true. I see the importance of noticing the things you mention. I have a bit of a strange relationship to my current practice. On one hand, I find the relative calm in my mind to be encouraging, as well as the fact that I seem to be digging up things that I was trying to hide from. On the other hand, the fact that I'm used to having my thoughts race constantly makes this strange, and the things I'm having to deal with are showing some potential to interfere in my life. I just feel like anything I can do to help me get past this part, and help reinforce my drive to continue would be a wise choice. From what I gather, this direct pointing is not a very intrusive practice, and I have seen some statements from people that claim it has helped them in this manner. My interest is not so much an attempt to avoid, as it is an attempt to make sure I stay engaged. That, and to help me stay mindful in daily life. I'm already seeing a benefit in that respect, and I'm going to need to be pretty vigilant if I want to not get swept up in the things I'm having come up. I'm in a situation where one moment where I slip and lose mindfulness has the potential to be a very bad thing. I know the self I've identified with in the past. He has some very bad habits. It will take time to disembed from that construct. The world doesn't wait for a confused yogi to get his act together. That means I have to work harder. I want any advantage I can get. The very fact that sitting here talking about it like this helps me get on task, and see some of the issues that could be holding me back, lends a bit of credence to the idea that a regular discourse, like that offered by DP, would help me stay on task.. My primary concern about DP is based in some amount of distrust in the general insight community toward the practice. I can see where they are coming from. The negative attitudes seem to hinge on the concept that...

...some people would try to just do DP. instead of regular sitting, and think that it's enough. A lot of my problem stems from the fact that I would like to have a regular teacher, but I can't afford to pay someone. In the stead, anyone that I could just discuss practice with on a regular basis, as opposed to the somewhat sporadic interaction offered by the forums (here and DhO). I would hit up some retreats, but I have to wait until my semester ends to consider something like that. Being an internet yogi is feeling kind of like attempting to learn to swim by jumping in the ocean. I think it would help to refine that to a swimming pool. If I could get a teacher, it would be nice, but barring that, a lifeguard would be better than naught.

"The world doesn't wait for a confused yogi to get his act together. That means I have to work harder. I want any advantage I can get. "

You do have access to lifeguards here--that's what we at the forum can be for you. But I'm curious about your sense of urgency. What bad thing is going to happen if this process takes time to unfold? You're a college student, which means you're young. I understand the importance of having a dedicated practice, and not dawdling around endlessly in a fog. But are you using the practice as a means of solving a specific problem? That's not necessarily the way things work, as far as I can tell. It may make sense to get some other source of help for the sticky situation to which you allude here, and at the same time keep up your practice.

Having things happen too fast could also be undesirable for you in a number of ways--there's a need to integrate the changes we're going through. People have advised me to pay gentle attention during this process. I think that would be more valuable for you than direct pointing. My main objection to that practice is that it has a harsh, aggressive quality to it that I don't think of as particularly helpful.

That's my input, fwiw. Be well.

" But I'm curious about your sense of urgency. What bad thing is going to happen if this process takes time to unfold? "

Well, I'm afraid for the well-being of a person I love deeply. The words I allow to slip could mean the difference between them finding path to their "salvation," or them being lost in a dangerous illusion. I am not using disproportionate terminology either. This is really as bad as I make it sound. I can't really air the story publicly though. Suffice it to say, my ability to employ right speech may very well leave someone in a very bad situation, or allow them a chance to crawl out of it.

Um, are you practicing to awaken or to avoid something?

"
Um, are you practicing to awaken or to avoid something?

"

I think my communication has been unclear. I want to awaken. I don't think awakening will give me anything unrealistic. I don't think it will GIVE me anything at all. I see it as a process of cultivating a state of being wherein I can be more confident in my ability to live a healthy life. I don't want to avoid the bad things that come up in life. The opposite is happening. The things I had tried to avoid are coming up. I have to deal with them now. I do have some pretty bad things in my life. My goal in practice is to learn to live through them, instead of hiding from them. I have tried to avoid problems all of my life. I realized that wasn't working. It was just creating more problems. That's what drew me to the dharma in the first place. I want to grow. I just happen to be in a place that really sucks, and I'm really new to all of this. I have almost 30 years of bad habits to break.I know it's not an easy ride. I know it's not a band-aid. If I wanted to avoid life, I would just keep doing the things I did before.I want to learn to live life on it's own terms. I think that's a lot of what enlightenment is about. That's why I'm concerned with having input. I'm making a radical change in direction. One I know is for the best. It can be daunting.

Speaking from the decidedly unenlightened point of view... my impression from studying all these forums is that the enlightened among us are often prone to conflict, disagreement, schism, etc. So, as appealing as enlightenment is, it seems not to be a panacea. Also, I don't think saving others is among the siddhis.

I'm reminded of talks by Jack Kornfield on the subject of the benefits of talk therapy vs. meditation. Both have distinct benefits and can help each other. In a recent public forum, Dan Ingram was asked about using the practice to aid decision-making pre-stream entry. He said his preference for that was talking with a reliable friend.

I'm sorry for your predicament. Watching people you care about suffer can be a lot more painful than the dark night, per se.

FWIW

www.buddhanet.net/psymed1.htm

Yeah, I'm also in therapy. I'm using every angle I can to focus on improving myself. This is only a a facet in my pursuit of a better life. I know that nothing is going to instantly fix everything. I appreciate the concern I'm seeing here. If anyone wants to continue discussing my potential barriers to progress, might I request that it be done in my practice thread or PM's, if you're so inclined (don't take this as me dismissing your thoughts, I welcome your advice)? This thread has gotten quite derailed.

Back to the topic: I take it that a lot of the anti-direct pointing sentiment is present here. I'm confused about this. I know Dan Ingram has voiced support for DP in some forum posts on DhO, and if I'm not mistaken, I thought Ken mentioned it in a podcast on buddhistgeeks. Are there any practitioners here that have a positive opinion of DP? From both sides, what are the specific pros and cons? I want a pragmatic critique.

Okay, let's take a deep breath and consider something fundamental to your question -- what do you think the "direct pointing" method is? Please elaborate because without that we're gonna keep flailing around.

Thanks!

I just want to point out that "direct pointing"in the context of DhO/KFD is highly likely to refer to one particular teacher/group's methods, which used to be known (may still be?) for being quite free of traditional context and for being very aggressive. Mahamudra, Advaita, Dzogchen and other traditions also use the method of inquiry (self-inquiry, natural inquiry) when it is appropriate for a student. There is no "pro"and "con" to inquiry methods in general - they are a fundamental part of many Hindu and Buddhist traditions. When done in a healthy way, in my own opinion, the questions and contemplation take place a) in the context of a larger wholesome system of belief, not as a narrow attack on your sense of self; and b) are offered by the teacher as the natural progression of the student's awakening indicates such questions are relevant.

I feel you are coming from a lot of anguish and suffering as it is, and when I see people in that condition I tend not to recommend they pursue aggressive or intensive "dry" practices, but rather balance their practice with softer practices such as devotional or metta practice and include traditional ethical/moral practices also, to stabilize themselves. Note that "softer" does not mean less effective. It means less masochistic and can help shed more light on delusions.

Hopeful_Seeker, can you please answer my question before we go any further?

Thanks.

Just to note also, there are teachers listed on this site, and there are people you may have interacted with whom you feel would be understanding and wise guides one-on-one, based on how they have talked about their experiences and so on. Just ask them. Even the teachers listed may have reduced rate services or not charge for teaching. Some people do, some don't. It does help a lot to have a teacher. A teacher does not have to be a guru, who you work with the rest of your life. It can be someone you work with for a few months even, to help you stabilize and orient your practice. Best wishes!

Well, I'd say it looks like an intellectual practice that could help to supplement regular practice by bringing one to a state of mind that is conducive to actually experiencing "no-self" as opposed to having an academic understanding of the concept. It seems like it might give some perspectives to where attention should be turned in practice. The examples I've read are a series of questions that seem very similar to the types of questions people have been asking practitioners here and on DhO. If I were to try to refine it, I would say it seems to be a type of (almost) noting that is contained to a narrow focus, specifically, the "no-self" issue. DP isn't an easy button to arhatship. I don't think it goes anywhere near that level. I don't even think it would do much good without actual practice. I think it looks like it could be a useful supplement in early practice, but, I could be mistaken.

Hopeful, I think being motivated to practice is great. But what I detect here is a rather extreme example, such that it prompted my earlier question. As someone who has dealt with anxiety I know that feeling and I know that it can lead to a certain flavor of desperation. If that's the case it may be that meditation should wait for therapy to have some positive effects. Mediation is not medication <insert trademark symbol here>

Chris, what do you think of Giragirasol's suggestion that Metta is helpful in this kind of situation. (Sorry to hijack yr thread, Seeker. I think it's bringing up some useful, common questions regarding practice.)

"Chris, what do you think of Giragirasol's suggestion that Metta is helpful in this kind of situation. (Sorry to hijack yr thread, Seeker. I think it's bringing up some useful, common questions regarding practice.)"

Well, if it serves a greater purpose than it would have, then so be it. lol

I went through Liberation Unleashed and was pronounced "liberated" ... but I don't detect an actual change. Some people seem to have life-changing insights from this direct pointing at no-self process, but others don't. It didn't take much time, really, so I would encourage you to do it -- just don't expect much.

The advice the Buddha gave seems to be to try things out for yourself, and do whatever works for you.

As jwhooper's experience suggests, I suspect any inquiry or pointing will only really work if one happens to be at a place in ones practice where it is relevant and it is framed in a way that is personalized to your needs. Just to add, the dropping away of a sense of self is a natural and gradual fruit of practice, and is not a way to avoid engaging with and facing your regular life and all the things in it. It is also not a magic way to get around the fact that you don't like things about yourself (if that happens to be the case). For example, this guy's touching story about PTSD and awakening: erickolvig.com/?p=138

"Chris, what do you think of Giragirasol's suggestion that Metta is helpful in this kind of situation. (Sorry to hijack yr thread, Seeker. I think it's bringing up some useful, common questions regarding practice.)"


I like her suggestion about metta but I also think we here tend to jump to conclusions about what you call "this kind of situation." This is probably an unsatisfying answer but sometimes we do need to know a lot more about the circumstances of a person's practice, and life, before making a diagnosis.

Not a "diagnosis" but a comment on my personal practice. I've found anxiety, guilt, and grief have been greatly reduced and happiness increased through a forgiveness practice:
www.dhammasukha.org/Study/Articles/forgi...ditation-general.htm
This has helped me when I've felt my actions could very negatively impact others. Tried it if you'd like.

Hopeful- I was introduced to what I think you are referring to as DP in the days before stream entry. My teacher suggested using the phrase "Who am I?" and dropping that in over and over again throughout the day. I assume he waited until then because it wouldn't have been useful before and I'd agree with that. When I ran into "not-self" or "no-self" before that it honestly gave me the willies and I wasn't interested in pursuing it so I had maybe a different perspective on than you do now. I think annata is most useful nowadays as pointer towards letting go rather than another concept to get attached and lay claim to. If you are truly practicing noting or whatever and seeing reality objectively you are already practicing the non-separation that annata reveals. Anyways, this is just my experience and I'm just some dude, but I hope you find some clarity regarding whats useful for you in your own practice.