should i even start this ?

i started meditating about 20 years ago but not very seriously ( always used it for stress and anxiety ) and its been on and off eversince .This time ive been going for 6 months much more seriously and now sit for about an hour . Have read a lot on web recently about the dark night ( scarey ) and the commitment needed ( i have husband kids mortgage and a business to run ) so probably shdnt even start.,but when i dont i feel dpressed and stressed. (What happens when i do is moving into stuff like intense vibrations in eyeballs, pressure on face and eyes, strong energy when i breath in , visual distortions if do it with eyes open, white light , feeling very expansive ) Is it too late to stop, or is there some other technique where i can stay this side of A&P ? Also when i first ever meditated ( yoga class relaxation , then meditating alone at home) i went quickly into a very deep level of concentration , i only did it for a few months but for the next 2-3 years i had regular and frequent intense lucid dreams, night terrors , a feeling of being the prey of something very evil most nights which i had to fight or surrender to and a couple of experiences of astral projection. This was followed by 15 years of depression and anxiety. ( wondering if ive already had the A&P or not ? ) This is all really bugging me and there is no one to talk to about it would really appreciate any input , many thanks .

You might consider talking about the depression with a therapist, as a support to meditation, so you are better equipped to deal with any ups and downs that may unfold and so you have an alternative to meditation should you wish to avoid going any deeper, which you seem to wish to. Given your brief story, further meditation is likely to continue the process of making you deal with stuff head on, both good stuff and bad stuff. The dark night thing is not the point, really. Each person's experience is different. What does happen is we get to face all our "stuff" (both pleasant and unpleasant) up close and personal as part of the process of letting go of our attachments and aversions. How that manifests for each person is different.

It sounds like you've already started the awakening process and so there might be no realistic way of "turning back." But the point of all of this, IMHO, is not to focus on 'where am I on the maps?' but to investigate and figure out how suffering arises. If you're doing a samatha technique and then finding that you're embedded in all of the difficult stuff that arises when you get up, you might benefit from learning how to diligently note, and thereby gain freedom from, the mind states and thoughts that arise, whether they're pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. You can do this on and off the cushion and it can be very helpful.
Meanwhile, if depression really is a problem, of course you would probably benefit from looking into skillful ways to better cope with it and to work with any actual physiological or psychological dimensions/roots involved, as giragirasol suggests. It seems to me that there's no reason not to take a full-court-press approach to these challenges--precisely because you have so many responsibilities. While difficult stuff can and does arise, it seems to me that meditation ought to help you (1) be happier and suffer less and (2) have an easier time dealing with the stresses of everyday life. Don't you think that's true?

"You might consider talking about the depression with a therapist, as a support to meditation, so you are better equipped to deal with any ups and downs that may unfold and so you have an alternative to meditation should you wish to avoid going any deeper, which you seem to wish to. Given your brief story, further meditation is likely to continue the process of making you deal with stuff head on, both good stuff and bad stuff. The dark night thing is not the point, really. Each person's experience is different. What does happen is we get to face all our "stuff" (both pleasant and unpleasant) up close and personal as part of the process of letting go of our attachments and aversions. How that manifests for each person is different. "

thanks for your comments giragirasol , i have had a lot of counselling and psychotherapy over the years and I am in therapy at the moment, so I'm used to facing up to my stuff. ( had a very traumatic event as a child )
I spose my question is should i continue with my meditation ( which i feel inclined to do ) if it makes dealing with life too difficult ( ie the domestic realities of life ) or should i just stop meditating to avoid this , or is it too late because I'm already in too deep ?
I know everyones experience is different so there is not definitive answer, its more of a friendly opinion that I'm after - lol !

Thanks for your ideas igroove , meditation definitely makes me happier and able to cope better with life, and coupled with therapy fingers crossed i'm the best ive ever been . i just dont want to jeopardise all that by
messing with my mind too much ! Maybe some of the horror stories on sites such as this and dharma overground are exagerated ? or maybe i just always seek them out to put myself off doing something this challenging, i dont know .
I feel like i found something that could save me only to be told it could destroy me ! sorry to sound so dramatic .

When I first found MCTB and this community, I was happy to blame my troubles on the Dark Night. Lately, though, I think depression may have been a factor in developing the introspection that led to A + P, but was not a result of it. Dark night effects may have complicated depression, but if I'd had this practice they most likely would not have, and I think I would have healed a lot sooner. My impression is the Dark Night is not in itself a huge disaster as long as you're practicing with some guidance and understanding.

So, if you did cross the A+P, you should practice. If you didn't, don't be deterred by the Dark Night, just be aware. This is a friendly (and definitely not expert) opinion.

thanks for your reply someguy77 . Understanding that Dark night exists and having people to talk to about it, must be easier than coping with it with no knowledge , so that is a comfort. ( it cant be any worse than the cathartic pain of psychotherapy !! )
Its good to hear your experiences and to know that having the guidance provided on this site is so valuable. cheers.

"I spose my question is should i continue with my meditation ( which i feel inclined to do ) if it makes dealing with life too difficult ( ie the domestic realities of life ) or should i just stop meditating to avoid this , or is it too late because I'm already in too deep ?"


Moderator comment:

I want to make sure we're all aware of how delicate these issues can be. I'm just not comfortable with someone asking a bunch of random participants on this message board about how to mix therapy, medication and meditation. That is something that we can talk about from personal experience but it is NOT something we are experts at. This is a mediation message board. It is not a medical advice message board. No one here that I know of is qualified to give medical advice, so all such comments are to be weighed carefully and with your physician or therapist.

To try to be clear, folks should come here for advice on how to meditate, not on how to mix meditation with medicine and therapy.

Thanks

"To try to be clear, folks should come here for advice on how to meditate, not on how to mix meditation with medicine and therapy.

"

It looks like we have disclaimers upon disclaimers. Needless to say, almost everyone *does* mix meditation and medicine at some point, so it seems helpful to just sort out which is which. That's how I'm reading this and other recent conversations.

The last thing we need is for someone not to have been disclaimed

And, in all seriousness, it's just better and smarter to make the differences open, disclaimed and that folks be forewarned.

'Nuff said.

"Moderator comment:

I want to make sure we're all aware of how delicate these issues can be. I'm just not comfortable with someone asking a bunch of random participants on this message board about how to mix therapy, medication and meditation. That is something that we can talk about from personal experience but it is NOT something we are experts at. This is a mediation message board. It is not a medical advice message board. No one here that I know of is qualified to give medical advice, so all such comments are to be weighed carefully and with your physician or therapist.

To try to be clear, folks should come here for advice on how to meditate, not on how to mix meditation with medicine and therapy.

Thanks

"

First, i agree that you should think about this deeply, and that we are not qualified to give medical advice. However, that being said, your physician or therapist is also quite unlikely to know much about how meditation mixes with medicine and therapy. Once you step beyond the mindfulness stuff to transformative practices, it is my impression that any interaction with medicine and therapy is to some degree uncharted territory. I have myself experienced minor interactions, but that is not to say there couldn't be very strong negative or positive interactions.
Personally, i would follow cmarti's advice of discussing this with your therapist or physician. I would pay special attention to informing them of anything you are doing that might make a drug or therapy seem more or less effective than it would be on it's own, so as to help them make the proper judgment about what sorts of treatment are right for you.

Personally, i would listen deeply to the kinds of things people say here about such things, while also knowing that these experiences will not necessarily apply to you. It is very possibly to navigate this territory skillfully and without great problems, but it's a personal journey.

I think the wariness some of us are expressing comes from dealing with people who have difficulties and are trying to avoid going to therapy or getting treatment, and hoping meditation can be a shortcut or workaround to help them avoid dealing with their stuff. It's a common idea. So when people ask about meditation helping with their problems, all the red flags shoot up for those of us who have dealt with people who really need a more comprehensive support system than some people on a forum telling them how to meditate. It's not easy to judge by a couple of questions whether a person is really in a good place to be asking about meditation, or is fragile, desperate or in critical need of other intervention. Then if a bunch of folks say "yeah, do some meditation" maybe it's not what they need and they get worse or harm themselves, and it's a mess. Thus the wariness at these type of questions.

I can only speak from my own personal experience, which is that the Dark Night stuff is happy to cycle around over and over and over for decades. It is exactly what brought me here. I tried everything to ignore, sidestep, and avoid it. Now I'm here to go through it and end it. There is nothing to fear for me, because I would go through it anyway. Our experiences seem to be quite similar. I don't know that this is the answer, I only know that everything else I have tried up to now was NOT the answer. Everyone is different.

I'd recommend having a telephone or Skype session with one of the teachers here and describing your meditation experiences in detail to see where you might be and discuss your options. Just as you need to talk to a therapist about your psychological/medical needs, you can benefit from a one-on-one session with a meditation teacher skilled at discerning where you are in your practice. Then you can try to put it all together with more knowledge and awareness.

I had a difficult Dark Night, but I was shepherded through it by teachers here, and I also took seriously Daniel Ingram's warning about bleedthrough. I would post on here about my worst nightmares (sometimes literally) but I kept up a demanding job, parenting, marriage, caring for an elderly parent, and everything else without anyone being the wiser. I'm not saying that this would be the case for someone else, only that if you've been frightened by my thread in particular, you should know the rest of the story. It wasn't pleasant, but then again life before I started this path had its challenges as well.

I am still seeing a therapist, and I've been open with her about what my practice and its results have been. She is very supportive, even quite enthusiastic, although I have to say she can't possibly know what this practice is like to any significant degree. However, she is qualified to know when someone is going off the rails; for example, she would be able to detect when someone is dissociating (as opposed to noting and disembedding from emotions that present in the body in certain ways). Good luck!

"I think the wariness some of us are expressing comes from dealing with people who have difficulties and are trying to avoid going to therapy or getting treatment, and hoping meditation can be a shortcut or workaround to help them avoid dealing with their stuff. It's a common idea. So when people ask about meditation helping with their problems, all the red flags shoot up for those of us who have dealt with people who really need a more comprehensive support system than some people on a forum telling them how to meditate. It's not easy to judge by a couple of questions whether a person is really in a good place to be asking about meditation, or is fragile, desperate or in critical need of other intervention. Then if a bunch of folks say "yeah, do some meditation" maybe it's not what they need and they get worse or harm themselves, and it's a mess. Thus the wariness at these type of questions."

Well said, bears repeating. It is quite appropriate to be wary.

Here is something you might bring up with a senior meditation teacher or a therapist. Here are the two short (8 minutes or so) meditations on creating positive feelings by Shinzen Young. and

In my own case, at one time I felt I needed to both keep grinding away with a noticing and a mahamudra practice but needed to do a better job recognizing the joy and happiness that would come up during a day. The above helped.

jack

"Well said, bears repeating. It is quite appropriate to be wary.

"

All of this is true, but don't you think a lot of us got into this practice because we were dissatisfied with life the way it was? If you take inventory, I think you'll find a lot of people saying that it was some kind of pain that motivated them down the path. Idealism is another possible impetus, but we certainly aren't all of us putting in the hours and hours of practice simply out of high-mindedness, nor can anyone know in advance what the actual experience will be like. I'm not suggesting a breezy indifference to the risks, mind you, but just a realistic acknowledgment of what brings people to forums like this.

The point is that there are things meditation will help you with and there are conditions you might have that it may actually make worse, and then there are conditions you may have that just plain require medical attention, not meditation. My desire is to make sure we respect the difference.

I got into meditation to help with anxiety and stress. I did not consider it to be a replacement for therapy. It's not.

In case it wasn't clear in my previous answer, if you are already having "transformative symptoms" from meditation, those are likely to keep happening if you keep meditating, and may to some degree even if you don't, or may kick in again if you return to practice at a later date. In my own practice I was involved in a spiritual tradition for about ten years when I was younger. After some dark night type stuff combined with depression from personal issues, I dropped practice completely and went into therapy and got my life in order. I did no practice whatsoever for over ten years. I didn't spend the ten years in a perpetual awful dark night. Just an ordinary life with ups and downs like most people. I started practicing again a few years ago only after some deaths made me think about spiritual things again. I just wanted a calm meditation practice, not anything transformative, but some of that work had already been done in the past, and before I knew it it all kicked in again, and carried on from where it had left off, in a manner of speaking. Your mileage may vary.

thanks for all comments - I will digest them