Shinzen Young Disses Maps, Doubts Arhats

Perhaps starting this thread is just the kind of dithering he warns about, but it seems relevant to my practice right now at least. I hear him saying that "people who like to talk about maps on the internet" (I think he means us!) are 1. greatly exaggerating the significance and difficulty of the Dark Night, 2. Greatly diminishing the definition of an Arhat (he reasserts a more rare and exalted description), and 3. possibly using a definition of Stream Entry that is more narrow and more distinguishable than in his experience. That said, it seems like the relative accessibility of Stream Entry is a point of agreement with the views prevalent here.

Food for thought (and practice, of course.)

I saw this video. I don't think he says maps are useless per se, but that the maps we work with are inadequate to describe the many variations that individuals experience as they travel through the progress of insight. That conforms with my own observation and experience. He says progress is not strictly linear, but has lots of loops; that's also what I've seen and felt. As for the Dark Night: it doesn't necessarily affect everyone the same way. Some people have very little trouble with it, others get it in spades. I can't really comment on his understanding of Arhat-ship, so I'll leave that to others.

What I did find interesting and even remarkable was his call for a more thorough, scientific examination of these phenomena. The maps we use are very old, come from a culture that is unlike our own (hierarchical, with no tolerance for questioning teachers), and reflect much that is just tradition or based on rites and rituals. He thinks in a couple hundred years at most we should have a much better handle on these things.

Thanks for the clarification, Laurel. My heading is a little sensationalistic.

Also - Re: Arhats,

I don't think I've met one by the traditional criteria. As of late, I'm leaning more toward the traditional definition myself. I think it is possible to overcome the 10 fetters (or at least having that as a goal will lead to further and further progress - no flag planting).

Yeah, I wasn't trying to question anyone's attainment at all. I've just been wondering - if so many people are getting it done in a few years between shifts, what are all those monks up to decade after decade? So, in that regard, Mr. Young's comments interested me.

IMO, Shinzen is completely correct.
Specifically, the dark night does not need to be as hellish as is often reported here, it may be, but it's rare.
As far as Arhat, I'm not one, but as you said 77, what are those monks doing for all those decades? We few westerners have discovered the secret those silly monks are scared to talk about? While it makes "us" feel good...I doubt it. More likely a case of lowered standards, on our part.

These practices and what they aim for seems to be an almost infinite series of shades of gray. This person or that person then places a marker somewhere on that huge spectrum and decides that particular place is somehow significant. Those monks are probably way down there in the dark, dark, dark gray. The differences, after a certain point, are probably a lot more significant to the monk than to those around the monk, but for the monk worth the effort. For those of us who have jobs, families, active lives in the west it is possible to get into pretty dark gray territory, though. I really think it's better to think not in terms of absolutes and classifications because there really aren't any. Add to all that the number of facets on the jewel we're talking about and you get so many variations and permutations that we're left staring slack jawed in awe. It's a problem with millions of variables and no final solution.

"I really think it's better to think not in terms of absolutes and classifications because there really aren't any."

Then why so much focus on it here?

The OP's take on Shinzen's presentation seems rather cynical to me. I watched this video not long ago, before it was posted here on the forums. I'm subscribed to Shinzen's youtube channel. I like the way he presents the dharma, and to me he's obviously a legit teacher speaking from experience. He is clearly influenced by zen tradition and doesn't seem to be a mahasi / burmese style progress of insight stickler like some here. Anyone who does these practices persistently will see exactly what he's talking about, the cycles in cycles, the loops.. or the fractal as Daniel mentions. This can be confusing for people so Shinzen's criteria for progress are a useful simplification imo.

The linear layout of the progress of insight is practical and a useful arrangement, it is more accessible to beginners than some fractal / mathematical model would be. But I think we can all agree our maps while extremely useful and a great reference are indeed imperfect. As has been said many times here, the maps are not the territory. Shinzen says we're better off with the maps than without, and I agree. If we as a community continue to document people's progress in detail, we will have a start towards what Shinzen wants; big data sets of people's experience and development in practice.

Shinzen is a pragmatic, practical dharma teacher, and has similar aims and goals as many of us in the pragmatic dharma community. I think we have a lot more in common than any perceived differences. I don't see why anyone should take any offense at him using a more traditional view of Arhatship, it's just his opinion from his view and influences from his traditions. I think Shinzen is right, and that if many practitioners come together and collaborate openly about the dharma and their practice, and also involve the scientific community, we may eventually develop even better maps and practice technologies.

"Then why so much focus on it here?"

Maps are in the DNA of pragmatic dharma practitioners. I was posting my personal opinion.

"The OP's take on Shinzen's presentation seems rather cynical to me. "

No, not at all. Just curious and a little confused. I think Shinzen Young is terrific. It's because his teaching is so in line with those here that I was surprised at the divergence. Nobody is offended.

" Add to all that the number of facets on the jewel we're talking about and you get so many variations and permutations that we're left staring slack jawed in awe."

Beautifully stated.

The arhatship issue aside (I really have no opinion on it), I think toning down the expectations about the Dark Night could be a very positive contribution. Firstly, to avoid conflating Dark Night symptoms with medical symptoms, and to avoid scaring people off from Vipassana. Also, there is a possibility of scripting there.

That is my perspective, which is the perspective of an "ordinary person." (All maps would agree on that, I am sure!)

"No, not at all. Just curious and a little confused. I think Shinzen Young is terrific. It's because his teaching is so in line with those here that I was surprised at the divergence. Nobody is offended.

...

I think toning down the expectations about the Dark Night could be a very positive contribution. Firstly, to avoid conflating Dark Night symptoms with medical symptoms, and to avoid scaring people off from Vipassana. Also, there is a possibility of scripting there.

That is my perspective, which is the perspective of an "ordinary person." (All maps would agree on that, I am sure!)

"

hey someguy!

What I'm sorta getting at, is that there is probably much less of a divergence than it may seem. It's been part of KFD, and other pragmatic dharma communities to compare maps, point out shortcomings in them, and try to match them up across traditions.

And regarding the dark night, it's pretty much the standard here to talk about possible dark night experiences so people can be prepared and handle them better, but there's usually the disclaimer that everyone's experience may differ, and that for some people the dark night can be no big deal, while for others it can be tough.

Also, one may breeze through the dark night during one path, but have difficulty with it during a later path.. so it's best to prepare people. The dark night warnings come from the pragmatic dharma community to offset the mushroom culture, and the selling of dharma without informing people of the possible difficulties.

It's about transparency and openness, and I don't think it will discourage any serious practitioners. In fact, being informed about dark night can help some yogi's persist and not give up their practice during difficult periods. Thanks for the thread!

metta!

Justin

It is wise to point people to seek medical advice from the appropriate sources, and to seek counseling and mental health support as well, since we can't provide all of that for people by giving them information about meditation.

Eventually though, if we get serious about our practice, we will have to face our karma, our negative issues and conditioning on deep levels at some point, and it's helpful and smart to be prepared.

Even if we've had years of counseling and support and feel mentally stable in every day life, practice tends to amplify and magnify issues, and allow deep subconscious stuff to bubble to the surface. The deeper you go the stronger the effect.

So we shouldn't go to meditation as a cure all, but we also shouldn't turn away from our practice every time we encounter some of our own issues. If we dropped our practice every time we encountered a rough spot and spend that time on therapy instead, we might not get very far in our practice. Re-arranging our stuff can only do so much and offers diminishing returns.

I have suffered from anxiety and depression, and I can distinguish these in my life from dark night symptoms. It is clear to me that dark night can magnify these issues at times. It is also clear to me that my practice has helped me enormously with handling my own anxiety and depression, and greatly reduced my suffering. It could however be very complex and difficult to distinguish for some people without very informed and specialized council.

In the end it is always a personal journey and we must find a way to balance and integrate our practice with our life and personality / issues.

"So we shouldn't go to meditation as a cure all, but we also shouldn't turn away from our practice every time we encounter some of our own issues. If we dropped our practice every time we encountered a rough spot and spend that time on therapy instead, we might not get very far in our practice. Re-arranging our stuff can only do so much and offers diminishing returns."

The original point (mine, as admin) was to make sure that people with serious problems not substitute meditation for medication or therapy. That's it.

The Dark Night stuff here could also have a huge sampling bias - perhaps this community attracted a lot of people who were suffering in dark night and were looking for a way through.

I was finally able to listen to/watch all of that Shinzen Young video. Very impressive, very thorough, very astute, and quite accurate in my view. I liked his balanced approach to the question about maps, even though the topic title here would cause one to think he's all agin' the maps.

People are wasting time and effort finding/formulating/figuring-out the map while the map is already clear, no one need to look somewhere else. There's no "best map", there's only the "correct map".

"There's no "best map", there's only the "correct map"."

Is that like "the one true/correct faith?
Like "The Only Correct Meditation Technique" (tm)?

" There's no "best map", there's only the "correct map"."

What are you referring to, ignobleone?

"Is that like "the one true/correct faith?
Like "The Only Correct Meditation Technique" (tm)?"

Hi Yadid,
No, it's not like that And I'm not interested to "TradeMark" (tm) any map here. I'm just trying to point out one which is already there.
Btw, finally someone mentioned correctness and faith here

"Hi Yadid,
No, it's not like that And I'm not interested to "TradeMark" (tm) any map here. I'm just trying to point out one which is already there.
Btw, finally someone mentioned correctness and faith here "

Hi ignoble,
Can you please elaborate? What do you think is the correct map,
and what do youmean by mentioning correctedness and faith?

"
" There's no "best map", there's only the "correct map"."

What are you referring to, ignobleone?

"

Hi cmarti,
I'm referring to the one from the Sutta (not Sutta Commentary.) It depends on the criteria for Enlightenment.

Okay, which map? Are you being serious or are you just playing with us?

@cmarti
Sorry for not being to the point. Of course I'm serious. Mr. Young mentioned it in his youtube video as the nine jhanas map.

@Yadid
The nine jhanas map is what I think the correct map. Any comments are most welcome.
"and what do you mean by mentioning correctedness and faith?"
Because you mentioned the word 'faith' in addition to the word 'correct'. I guess we'll get into them as we go along.