Shinzen Young Disses Maps, Doubts Arhats

"correct" implies an absolute conceptual truth that runs counter to the *experience* of many on this board.

If you wish to write about your personal experience, please contribute through a practice thread.

I think further discussion along this vector is a waste of people's precious energy.

I agree with what Orasis said and yet, I'm kinda enjoying this.

Ignoble one, unless I'm very much mistaken, you've broadly hinted that you are highly accomplished, and that your intention is essentially to share your wisdom and experience. Perhaps the better way of going about that would be to start your own website and link to it here and leave it at that?

Rather than, as you are doing, playing the role of newcomer, ostensibly asking advice from the members here, but actually attempting to engage us in some kind of guided dialogue (as evidenced by repeatedly using phrases like "we'll get into [that] as we go along", implying that you are guiding the discussion in a particular direction which you can see but we can't, implying that you are fit to guide those you are engaging with here, implying you see those you engage with here as needing guidance... and so on. All this as opposed to another manner of engaging, one in which participants try not to make too many assumptions about each others' experience and understanding, and in which participants participate in *explicit*, *straightforward*, and *mutually inquisitive* ways, rather than participants arrogating to themselves the role of "guide", and relegating the roles of all other participants to "those to be guided", with all the rhetorical tactics that involves--- which rhetorical tactics boil down to, IMO, manipulation and a tacit didactic authoritarianism.)

Re: maps, I think they can be motivating and comforting. For example, it was useful to me at times to be able to label difficult or strange experiences according to one or another map, rather than thinking "holy ****, I'm going mad!" When you see everyone else goes through similar territory, it's quite helpful. On the other hand, people in general seem to love seizing onto things and making them into dogma, and if you do that in your practice you're just digging yourself a lovely hole you'll have to climb back out of eventually. Map talk can remind me of kids in grade school at recess who spend more time arguing about the rules of the game they are about to play than actually playing it.

As to starting ones own website - the amazing thing about the internet is we can all have more or less free and very easy to make blogs, websites, youtube channels, etc. where we can babble on endlessly about our own particular interests. I've had many myself, and thoroughly enjoy it. Better than the old days when you had to leave xeroxes of your zine in bars.

Folks, as an FYI -- ignobleone was not interested in being a polite, cooperative or truly communicative poster on KFDh. That account has therefore been locked out

cmarti
KFDh Admin.

Hi Everybody,

I spoke to Shinzen Young on the phone two weeks ago. We spent two and a half hours together and had a wonderful time talking about maps, models, methods, and enlightenment. We plan to meet regularly to continue the discussion. Shinzen is one of the inspirations for pragmatic dharma and one of the forefathers of this movement. He is very much on the same page with the core values of this community. In other words, he is dedicated to awakening and to helping others to awaken. Of course he has his own thoughts about how to construct and interpret maps; just like everybody on this board!

Keep on keepin' on, folks. This practice works, and enlightenment is the best gig in town: definitely worth the time and effort.

-Kenneth

That's so great to read Kenneth!
I always thought a collab/discussion between you and Shinzen would be awesome.

The past years I've been studying with both Kenneth and Shinzen and have found great benefit in that approach. In Shinzen's audiobook "The science of enlightenment" I found the clarity and motivation I needed to start (and trust in) a daily practice. Kenneth's guidance (and the encouragement of this whole community) has boosted my practice and motivation a great deal. I'm planning on summarizing my experiences with that approach and asking you guys for input.

I have Shinzen's audiobook also, and at one point last year listened to it through about ten times (great for long flights!). Good stuff, and I love how he occasionally brings in concepts from other traditions, too (Judaism, for example)

Yeah, a Shinzen-Kenneth mashup would be like some sort of Pragmatic Dharma Supergroup. It'd be great if you could tape your next discussion! Perhaps Buddhist Geeks could publish it.

"It'd be great if you could tape your next discussion! Perhaps Buddhist Geeks could publish it."

That's what I was thinking also. I'd sure like to be a fly on the wall for that converation!

I also have Shinzen's audiobook, "The Science of Enlightenment" I'd agree with the other comenters: it's an outstanding resourse.

Kenneth, that's really cool. If you have time, would you be interested in posting some broad notes about things that stuck out as being particularly interesting about your conversation with him?