First Gear Noting vs. Mahasi Noting

In the chapter devoted to Mahasi Sayadaw from Modern Buddhist Masters Jack Kornfield describes the practice in this way:

"Mahasi emphasizes that awareness should focus on direct experience each moment and that mental notes are simply a peripheral aid to seeing more clearly... 95% of one's efforts should go to perceive the process directly and 5% to making the mental notes..."

Compare that to this from the 1st Gear:

"Detailed noting, however, is better than skeletal noting. That's because detailed noting "uses up" the available processing power of your mind, and that is exactly what you want to do. If you are noting in a way that requires all of your attention, your mind will not wander and you will not suffer. It's that simple. If, on the other hand, you use a noting technique that only requires 30% of the processing power of your mind, what are you going to do with the other 70%? You're going to suffer!"

Wow, what a difference! And for me that begs the question, why the difference? Is the answer right there in the 1st Gear description, the immediate reduction of suffering? Or does the shift in emphasis (from essentially the same practice) lead to different results? Or is it something else?

I wouldn't be so sure they are talking about different things per say. In order to note something, you have to experience it directly. Doing this again and again over time leads to a very direct experience of the moment.

If you see them as very different, try both and see which works better for you.

I've tried more detailed noting and less detailed noting, very fast noting and not so fast noting. All work. All lead you through the progress of insight.

Why the difference? Because detailed noting is more fail-safe, has better feedback, etc.

Practice makes perfect

" And for me that begs the question, why the difference?"

As Mumuwu said, these techniques all work. If one doesn't suit you, try another, but stick with one long enough to know it works or it doesn't. If you flip flip back and forth too fast you progress will be slower.

Both noting techniques are based on the foundation of direct perception; maintaining contact with the object with attention. Both of them employ the large majority of the minds "processing power" in maintaining continuity of that contact / direct perception over longer periods with less and less interruption. And both of them aim to employ 100% overall of the minds processing power / attention to the practice, which is the important point. A skillful means to fully and completely engage the mind with the practice without distraction.

Frankly, in my opinion those percentages are only meant to be illustrative, and shouldn't be taken as anything other than arbitrary. In other words, it's a false distinction to use them to compare the techniques. If you read "In This Very Life" by U Pandita the detailed, in depth explanation of noting and detailed "notes" are quite similar to what Kenneth teaches.

In my experience, detailed noting tends to aid some people in paying closer attention to their experience. And doubles, triplets, can be advantageous for developing a more encompassing sort of field of knowing where one perceives the whole field of experience directly.. which is necessary for attainment of path as far as I understand it. In other words, as one moves through the nanas, initially noting is focused on specific sensations or groups of them ( perhaps the breath ). Then later in one's path the focus becomes all inclusive, in which case detailed noting and doubles / triplets can aid one with all inclusive knowing that doesn't preclude / section off any part of experience.

In summary, the difference is conceptual, as has been suggested, try each approach and see what works best for you!

metta!

Justin

Thanks for the responses, gentlemen. Your feedback is terrific.

Mumuwu, as I considered the differences in each style of noting my sense was that 1st gear might help one navigate the dukkha nanas more easily while Mahasi's system was more of a dive-in-head-first approach. My hunch now, however, is that you would probably say not necessarily so.

"...but stick with one long enough to know it works or it doesn't."

Chris, duly noted and pun intended. I tend to fixate on distinctions. If only I could use that wretched habit to develop some jhana skills.

"...doubles, triplets, can be advantageous for developing a more encompassing sort of field of knowing where one perceives the whole field of experience directly."

Justin, what you say is very interesting and yet counter intuitive to me. I would have assumed that Mahasi's style of minimal noting would generate a broader field whereas the 1st gear would be more precise.

I trained in zen for several years where the mindfulness instructions were to completely engage with whatever I was doing and not much more than that.

The detailed noting systems is very new to me. I always believed that the noting should be placed very gently on the object and the attention should concern itself more with actual experience. The detailed approach sounds like a practice I can sink my teeth into. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks again and all the best

For the record - any form of noting or concentration meditation is a First Gear practice.

"For the record - any form of noting or concentration meditation is a First Gear practice."

I think I recall Kenneth writing something along the lines of that he speculated that 2nd gear practice would lead to development along the 1st gear attainments since it requires a lot of concentration to dwell as the Witness.

"Justin, what you say is very interesting and yet counter intuitive to me. I would have assumed that Mahasi's style of minimal noting would generate a broader field whereas the 1st gear would be more precise.

I trained in zen for several years where the mindfulness instructions were to completely engage with whatever I was doing and not much more than that.

The detailed noting systems is very new to me. I always believed that the noting should be placed very gently on the object and the attention should concern itself more with actual experience. The detailed approach sounds like a practice I can sink my teeth into. I'll let you know how it goes."

Hey Alvaro!

In my experience, there can be broad, inclusive, and precise awareness of the present moment as it is all at once, they need not be mutually exclusive. Different styles of noting may work better for different folks at different points in their practice. To me the noting itself encourages investigation, and is a skillful feedback mechanism, especially to counter distraction, but can be shifted out / dropped when we have more traction. 8]

I initially started out with the "rising, falling" noting, which wasn't as effective for me as detailed noting.

With triplets, we include not only the body sensation but also the vedana ( pleasant, neutral, unpleasant ) and the mental state. For me this can have a panoramic, inclusive feel, but I don't mean to imply that's the only way things can occur.

Right on, at gently resting attention, I wholeheartedly agree, gentle persistent contact is key for me as well! I think Kenneth uses the example, like a loved one gently placing their hand on your shoulder, in his direct mode instruction.. I think this is a great pointer for gentle contact of attention with the object. Let us know how your noting goes!

metta!

Justin

When concentration is strong, I detail note without labeling. When it is not as strong, I detail note using labels. When weak, I detail note out loud.

Lately, I have been doing my daily morning meditation session as follows. The first 20 min, we ping pong detail note over Skype. The next 20 min., I get offline and do what seems to be a combination of detailed noting and mahamudra. My concentration and clarity is very high. I back off trying to do anything and let the noting, if any, take its own course. I might notice without labeling an itch and spend 2-5 minutes watching it with a silent mind. Then I might do rapid noting with labeling for a little while. Then there might be very slow noting. There is no striving at all. I usually notice a stillness or emptiness that pervades everything even when noting. Really cool. Then we get back online and do 20 minutes of ping pong noting.

jack

Detailed noting helps me deconstruct sensations into finer and finer elements. The words used in labeling seem to make a difference in helping me see things I might not notice without them. For example, several days ago my left butt cheek hurt from sitting a long time. Looking closely, I noted pressure then tingling, then pain, then investigating, then burning then unpleasant, then neutral back to pressure and so on. In a later session, I didn't use labels but still noticed the distinctions made earlier.

jack

"...2nd gear practice would lead to development along the 1st gear attainments."

Yadid, so each gear has its own compliment of attainments. What are some of the attainments for 1st gear? I don't think it's recorded in the Kenneth's Three Speed writings.

"To me the noting itself encourages investigation, and is a skillful feedback mechanism..."

Hi Justin, yeah since I started to bring noting off the cushion and into my daily activities at first there was a lot of confusion and overwhelm. Like I was being buried in an avalanche of thoughts and sense impressions. Now that that has stabilized a bit I can feel the subtle sense of investigation and curiosity starting to emerge. BTW, thanks for the U Pandita tip, his looks like a book I should get.

Hi Jack, your practice sounds very dynamic and versatile. You must have high equanimity skills. As for me, I try and do one thing and that one thing as well as I can. For instance, today I had to walk to the Ministry of Transportation (the DMV to you Yanks) in the rain. I used the walking, waiting in line and everything else to investigate the vedanas, and little else.

Thanks everybody! Alvaro

"Yadid, so each gear has its own compliment of attainments. What are some of the attainments for 1st gear? I don't think it's recorded in the Kenneth's Three Speed writings.
"

Hן Alvaro,
Sorry, I didnt mean to cause confusion, I was simply mirroring something Kenneth wrote a while back ago.
As to your question, I dont feel like I have enough experience at present to come to any conclusion about this, but when I said '1st gear attainments' I meant the Paths, (first path, second path, etc.)

"Sorry, I didnt mean to cause confusion, I was simply mirroring something Kenneth wrote a while back ago."


Hi Yadid,

No worries. Your reply only made me curious. Besides a discussion on attainments is probably best reserved for another thread.

Take care, Alvaro