General questions on noting...

I'd be grateful if someone would answer (part) of these:

1) can we say that only one sensation can arise (or be) at a time, and that sensations follow each other in a chronological order?
2) what KF writes on the menu on the left, to me implies that the first thing to arise after a body feeling is its feeling-tone. If it is so, does it always happen? my experience is that while aversion and attraction can arise after a body feeling... it happens like 1% of the time... and for the rest no feeling tone whatsoever unless that is thought up (4th f.)
3) Is there really a neutral feeling tone or we are making that up?
4) I have no precise idea about the distinction between the 3rd and the 4th foundations of mindfulness. Personally i put in the 3rd 'hot, simple, primitive stuff' and in the 4th 'cold thoughts of a certain complexity, and they must be in the form of either verbalization of some kind or pitcures, also moving pictures". Is it what KF meant, or is it ok anyway?
5) Another problem than defining categories is that they seem to come together and maybe overlap... 3rd and 4th particulary... it's just my lack of precision?
6) When you return home late (say later than usual at night), do you skip your meditation session? When you're going to sleep less than usual (say 5 hours instead of 7) because of duties, do you wake up early for meditation like usual or use the meditation time in the morning to recover some sleep-time?

TY

hi giulio. i just wanted to add (i'm new to noting too) that i too wasn't clear about these categories. i've started noting, just using basically one word. except i sometimes add to that the word "pain" if the pain of something is getting to me, or "nice" if it feels good. so most stuff is, by default, just neutral. it doesn't mean that there is an actual feeling-tone called neutral. its just a word to say, if craving or aversion isn't appropriate. but surely one doesn't sit there saying "neutral" over and over again. i don't say it myself. anyway, someone who actually knows this technique will no doubt chime in soon... when north america wakes up
jacki

Just a few thoughts on some of what you ask, perhaps useful or not:

The point is to observe your own experience. How you perceive things will change from day to day and over months/years in many ways. You aren't trying to shoehorn your experience into a list, but rather use the general guidelines to help you notice what's going on in your own perceptions at every moment. Is a perception neutral? That's up to your experience. If you find something pleasant, it's pleasant. If you find it unpleasant, there it is. If you find it neither pleasant nor unpleasant, then it's neutral. Perhaps you don't find anything neutral, but everything either pleasant or unpleasant. That's fine. Perhaps what you find unpleasant one day seems pleasant another day and neutral another day. It's a way of making you more aware of how there is aversion and grasping as part of your experience.

In my own practice I've tended to slot in meditation any time I can, but if I miss a session due to some scheduling problem/working late/etc. I just sit the next time I can.

Helpful? If not, disregard.

"1) can we say that only one sensation can arise (or be) at a time, and that sensations follow each other in a chronological order?"

No. We can't say that. You can, however, only note one thing at a time.

"2) what KF writes on the menu on the left, to me implies that the first thing to arise after a body feeling is its feeling-tone. If it is so, does it always happen? ..."

The body feeling is either pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. Your aversion, or attraction to it is 3rd foundation

"3) Is there really a neutral feeling tone or we are making that up? "

Feel your hands. Do they hurt? Do they feel good? If neither, and you can still tell they are there - that's neutral.

"4) I have no precise idea about the distinction between the 3rd and the 4th foundations of mindfulness. Personally i put in the 3rd 'hot, simple, primitive stuff' and in the 4th 'cold thoughts of a certain complexity, and they must be in the form of either verbalization of some kind or pitcures, also moving pictures". Is it what KF meant, or is it ok anyway?"

3rd foundation:
sadness, happiness, tired, Contracted mind, enlarged mind, uncertainty, distraction etc.

"5) Another problem than defining categories is that they seem to come together and maybe overlap... 3rd and 4th particulary... it's just my lack of precision?"

3rd and 4th don't overlap. 4th is mind objects - internal images, internal sounds

"6) When you return home late (say later than usual at night), do you skip your meditation session? When you're going to sleep less than usual (say 5 hours instead of 7) because of duties, do you wake up early for meditation like usual or use the meditation time in the morning to recover some sleep-time?"

If you are tired - sleep

I find the 2nd foundation, feeling tone, to be very useful and clear. For instance, this morning noting coolness on my leg was at, one instance, coolness pleasant. Later it became coolness unpleasant around my toes. Still later it was coolness neutral around my leg, neither pleasant nor unpleasant. The 2nd Foundation sometimes doesn't seem very important on this list but the Buddha taught it was very important.

Look at Kenneth's list of terms for each foundation. It makes the difference between 3rd and 4th Foundation clear. 4th Foundation has a thought as an object. 3rd Foundation is, in a sense, unattached to a specific object. Confusion, a 3rd Foundation note, for instance, doesn't apply to a thought but to a general state of mind. Planning thought, a 4th Foundation note, has a thought as an object.

What might help you is to take 10-15 minutes to first note just the 1st Foundation, another 10-15 minutes to note just the 2nd Foundation and so on. It would be ideal if you could do this with a ping pong partner

jack

this is all incredibly helpful. i've struggled with these issues and it's held my noting back.

ok, so mumu, you say "The body feeling is either pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. Your aversion, or attraction to it is 3rd foundation"

isn't it the case that if you're feeling aversion, then that means the sensation is "unpleasant". it doesn't really feel unpleasant until we feel an aversion. don't you think? anything that actually hurts, whether it is thought or sensation, does so because of the aversion. isn't that true? otherwise it doesn't feel unpleasant in the first place...

Jackha - thanks for explanation on difference between 3rd and 4th foundation. is it the case that 3rd foundation is more something you sense or feel, with more continuity, whereas 4th is more like a separate thought bubble; a self-contained thing?

it might seem like this is sort being overly picky, but i just haven't been able to properly grasp these things. if i can't grasp them, then i feel confusion and noting is difficult.

JackW: isn't it the case that if you're feeling aversion, then that means the sensation is "unpleasant". it doesn't really feel unpleasant until we feel an aversion. don't you think? anything that actually hurts, whether it is thought or sensation, does so because of the aversion. isn't that true? otherwise it doesn't feel unpleasant in the first place...
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I have had a lot of sensations, itching for instance, where I note itching unpleasant but it does not produce a feeling of aversion. On the other hand, I have had a few experiences where a sensation pleasnt produced aversion.
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JackW: is it the case that 3rd foundation is more something you sense or feel, with more continuity, whereas 4th is more like a separate thought bubble; a self-contained thing?
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In my experience, 3rd Foundation stuff is just as self- contained as a thought. All 4 Foundation phenomena arises and passes away.

A note of confusion is valid. Something I do a lot.

jack

I was going to suggest what Jack said. Try noting one foundation at a time for a set period. Sit and note only physical sensations for 10 min. Then go on to note each of the other foundations on their own until you get comfortable, then you can mix and do them in pairs, etc... It is actually really much more simple than it looks. It seems that a lot of us technical folks want to make more of it than it really is. It is very basic and very simple. Hear something, note 'hearing', visualize something, note 'imaging thought', feel tired, note 'tired', feel sad then note 'sadness' That is it. Don't make it more complicated than it is, even if your language for it is different than someone elses. It is about noticing, which in turn will eventually make your brain realize that the things you are noting are not you.

As things unfold you will start to realize certain things as you progress up the path. You will notice that certain thoughts cause physical sensations to arise, etc. Remembering thought -> anxiety -> tightness -> unpleasant.

Wow, did you see that? What started as a thought, turned into something physical and almost painful. Knowledge of Mind/Body & Cause/Effect.

Anyways, as you note sensations and continue to disembed the stages of insight will happen on their own it seems.

I think Aquanin has some very good suggestions. The process will develop by itself, from very simple noting practice. If you have to sit there and ponder whether something was unpleasant because aversion arose or not, then you risk no longer paying attention to the moment, but instead conceptualizing and trying to fit your experience into how you think it should be. You don't have to use a special vocabulary or even understand the four foundations of mindfulness to note. It's just a nice set of pointers for things to pay attention to that can be helpful. If you don't like something, say unpleasant. If you like it, say pleasant. If you can't decide, use neutral. If that is not working and confusing you, just name the sensations (itching, pressure, etc.) for the time being. It doesn't need to be complicated to work.

"this is all incredibly helpful. i've struggled with these issues and it's held my noting back.

ok, so mumu, you say "The body feeling is either pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. Your aversion, or attraction to it is 3rd foundation"

isn't it the case that if you're feeling aversion, then that means the sensation is "unpleasant". it doesn't really feel unpleasant until we feel an aversion. don't you think? anything that actually hurts, whether it is thought or sensation, does so because of the aversion. isn't that true? otherwise it doesn't feel unpleasant in the first place...

Jackha - thanks for explanation on difference between 3rd and 4th foundation. is it the case that 3rd foundation is more something you sense or feel, with more continuity, whereas 4th is more like a separate thought bubble; a self-contained thing?

it might seem like this is sort being overly picky, but i just haven't been able to properly grasp these things. if i can't grasp them, then i feel confusion and noting is difficult. "

The Buddha was subject to pain - for example a thorn in his foot or discomfort associated with a sick/ aging body. Craving and aversion, however are noted as the cause for dukkha in the second noble truth. His 8-fold path when followed to the end brings an end to both craving and aversion. It is important to grasp the difference. One - feeling tone - is a fact, the other is a mental position in relation to that fact which comes after the perception of that fact. The sequence is contact - feeling - perception - mental formation/reaction.

Great, got it, thanks.

Thanks to everybody partecipating or reading!

About noting foundations for a set period of time, i've done it a month ago or so noting for 30-40 mins each foundation separately. They all went horribly pretty much (with my definition of "horribly": very scarce noting, constant mental "fog").

Can i ask about this "fog"? do you understand what i mean....? i usually note it as "thinking", but i'm not sure.

Uhm... is somebody willing to do a little double-noting with skype? maybe noting foundations separately... i'm in the gmt+1 area...