No-self and hair-washing

I'm curious about an insight I had recently, so I thought I'd throw it out there to the KFD crowd for comments.

Unless I'm moving very, very slowly and deliberately, I often do some small task while my attention is somewhere else. However, even if I apply good mindfulness to that task, there is still a lot of it that happens automatically. Brushing my teeth is a good example. I can slow way down and very intentionally brush my teeth, but it becomes rapidly clear that I'm not really intentionally controlling each specific little movement. And, if I do try to control it, that actually interferes with the brushing. Eventually, it turns out that I can't think fast enough to control and coordinate all the muscle movements necessary in real-time.

I've realized that there are a lot of these times where I'm not really fully controlling the action. It's more the case that I intend an action to take place, and then step out of the way to let my body handle the specifics. Unfortunately, then I usually tune out and think about something else.

The other day, however, I was somehow able to let go of the tuning out and thinking, stay out of the way, and just watch the process unfold on it's own.

So, I was in the shower, and I poured out some shampoo and started rubbing my hands together. The next thing I know, I'm noticing that my hands are washing my hair by themselves without 'me' doing anything. As soon as I realized that 'I' wasn't involved, it snapped 'me' back into the illusion of control. Those few seconds of watching hair washing happening by itself keep coming up in my thoughts as something significant, though.

Anyone else have similar experience with doing things on auto-pilot and noticing that no one was in control?

All day long.

It's a very good observation. Remarkably, one can do life tasks without narrating it all to oneself ("now I am going to get in the car. now I am opening the garage...") The chit-chat is sort of irrelevant. Somewhere there's some science studies showing we "decide" things (notable via brain monitoring) before we are consciously aware of it.

So now you can let go of feeling obligated to think all that extra stuff! It will all work out anyway! Weee!

The truth is that everything is like that. You are never there controlling anything

This reminds me of something Wei Wu Wei wrote:

"Poached Eggs (all of us)

Arguing about transcending the I-concept, 'reducing' the 'power' of the ego, or what-not, is merely evidence of continued belief in the reality of that which, being merely a concept, is totally unreal.

It is like a man saying, 'I am perfectly sane: I know that I am not a poached egg, instead I am busily engaged in unpoaching myself and soon I shall not even need a piece of toast in order to be able to sit down.'"

Have a look and see if the intention is also happening automatically, and the story, and the noticing it's happening on it's own, etc.

Yes, it is interesting to notice how much stuff is happening on it's own: thoughts arise on their own; sleepiness; monkey mind; boredom; emotional responses, deciding to have a tuna sandwich, having an internal discussion about tuna vs ham on the sandwich; attention itself - that you noticed this or that, or your mind moved to this or that experience; that you just got sidetracked thinking about this or that.... all of it is quite spontaneous.

"Anyone else have similar experience with doing things on auto-pilot and noticing that no one was in control?"

It's more noticeable now when there is a solidly ensconced illusion of control. Everything happens according to things I can't see or affect, but mind sure likes to make up stories about how *I* made the big decision, or moved my foot over there, or drove to the store

"
"Anyone else have similar experience with doing things on auto-pilot and noticing that no one was in control?""


Yup. When I catch it happening it's always either creepy, hilarious or exilihirating.

A few months back I was alone on a long walk. I used this time to explore the first foundation. I was noting everything once or twice per second. After about 30 minutes my sense of agency just dissolved. "There's nobody home," was the thought that popped into my head at that moment. This freaked me out a little bit. Afterward I remember thinking "if there's nobody here, then who was walking down the street doing the seeing/hearing, etc?"

I play badminton. Great game, btw! But badminton is kinda weird in that you can't be successful by imposing your will on your opponent, unlike say tennis or basketball or hockey. The best badminton players are not the best actors - they are best the reactors. They know that victory is where there is no action. I've beaten guys who are taller and stronger. Tough guys spike a lot (aka, impose their will) which is easy to prevent and they also take a lot of net fouls.

The best attitude for the game is not "I'm gonna beat you!" but "what's happening now?" If you can keep that attitude the game plays itself and you're just along for the ride. In a sense it's like a third gear practice in action and a lot of fun.

" Somewhere there's some science studies showing we "decide" things (notable via brain monitoring) before we are consciously aware of it.
"


I found "Unconscious determinants of free decisions in the human brain", in Nature Neuroscience, April 13th 2008, Chun Siong Soon, Marcel Brass, Hans-Jochen Heinze & John-Dylan Haynes

Press release from the Max Planck Institute
www.mpg.de/567905/pressRelease20080414

Original paper (pay-walled, unfortunately)
www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v11/n5/abs/nn.2112.html

andymr: Anyone else have similar experience with doing things on auto-pilot and noticing that no one was in control?

giragirasol: All day long.
mumuwu: The truth is that everything is like that. You are never there controlling anything
cmarti: Everything happens according to things I can't see or affect

So, can someone help me with this? I'm not yet understanding something. So, if "I" am not in control of anything, if the intention is happening automatically as well, then is there the possibility of influencing future behavior? If so, how does this happen?

It's not quite as straightforward as "I want this therefore it happens" is it? Sometimes the results are what you wanted, sometimes not. I could go to the store to buy juice and get hit by a truck, or end up running into an old friend and going out for lunch instead. The fact is it feels like we have destinies and decisions and all that, and it's important not to get nihilistic about it (the trap of "there's no one here to do anything, therefore I can sulk on the sofa all day"). But for the purposes of furthering your meditation practice, it's really useful to notice how things happen spontaneously in the moment, as that leads to good insights.

"It's not quite as straightforward as "I want this therefore it happens" is it? Sometimes the results are what you wanted, sometimes not. I could go to the store to buy juice and get hit by a truck, or end up running into an old friend and going out for lunch instead. The fact is it feels like we have destinies and decisions and all that, and it's important not to get nihilistic about it."

That's a very good point. Causation's never really felt straightforward (especially after reading David Hume in college), and for some reason it seems that mindfulness of good intentions might be important.

The nihilism / free will / determinacy debates never really seemed that engrossing to me, but I do occasionally feel a strong sense of personal responsibility for my actions, and I suppose I'm curious if or how that might change as I continue to practice.

It's a matter of noticing that all you will ever experience occurs within consciousness. The doer of actions, the making of choice, etc. are not part of the conscious experience, only their results are. All you will ever experience is seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling and thinking. All of these are arising spontaneously dependent on things occurring outside the realm of consciousness where you can never go.

I find I feel ever more responsible the deeper my practice goes, but with the caveat that what defines being responsible has changed for me. That is, before it often really had to do with meeting the (imagined) expectations or demands of my superiors (parents, teachers) in order to be rewarded by their praise and avoid punishment (I was not always very aware of this motivation.)... Later in practice it seemed to move more towards honoring the natural honesty, generosity and compassion that practice opens up.

By the way, I stumbled on this article by a teacher named Gary Weber writing about this idea of choice and agency, for another take on it: streamified.me/dcf8b1

I'm surprised no one has mentioned(unless I missed it) dependent origination. The following is a short and excellent explanation that may help to clarify how things rise:

Keep in mind, that from a certain perspective, free will vs no agency is a false duality. From the lens of purely being the present moment there is no causality thus there is neither free will nor no agency.

I'm not saying that this perspective is "true", it is just a perspective that may become prominent as one rests more and more in the present moment and/or non-conceptuality.

"Keep in mind, that from a certain perspective, free will vs no agency is a false duality. From the lens of purely being the present moment there is no causality thus there is neither free will nor no agency.

I'm not saying that this perspective is "true", it is just a perspective that may become prominent as one rests more and more in the present moment and/or non-conceptuality."

Well put, Orasis.