2nd gear

ill just put it this way - what is likely to happen if i only do "the witness"?. no samatha no vipassana. only being in second gear. am i still going to go through all the stages of insight? and if not, how can i tell im doing anything good?

thank u
iftah

"how can i tell im doing anything good?"

I've always felt the best answer to that kind of question is to reflect upon whether what you are doing is having a postive impact on your day-to-day life, and whether the people who are close to you are benefiting from it also.

With me I've found that a lot benefit has come from doing the practices that didn't come naturally to me. I really did a lot of 1st gear stuff because it was so awkward for me. I know in my case if I do only what comes easy I am probably seeking comfort not enlightenment.

"what is likely to happen if i only do "the witness"?. no samatha no vipassana. only being in second gear. am i still going to go through all the stages of insight? and if not, how can i tell im doing anything good?"

What that amounts to is this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-enquiry

xsurf, who posts here sometimes, took that route:

awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/...s-of-experience.html

IMO, it depends.

Controlled leads to pain.

Uncontrolled witness leads to Boddhisatvayana briefly, then (if humble) to dzogchen/mahamudra.

"IMO, it depends.

Controlled leads to pain.

Uncontrolled witness leads to Boddhisatvayana briefly, then (if humble) to dzogchen/mahamudra."

I don't know what do you mean by uncontrolled witness leads to bodhisattvayana?

A first bhumi bodhisattva = realization of the twofold emptiness... not to be equated with 'witness'.

"ill just put it this way - what is likely to happen if i only do "the witness"?. no samatha no vipassana. only being in second gear. am i still going to go through all the stages of insight? and if not, how can i tell im doing anything good?

thank u
iftah"

2nd gear leads to the realization of "I AM". In this path, the Self-Realization is important... there must be an unshakeable realization of the "I". And that is not merely having an experience of witnessing. The difference between mere 'experience' and the 'realization' is briefly mentioned at the topic of this aritcle: awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/09/...ce-and-non-dual.html

i see. but how can actually know that you are doing it right? you can do it for years and achieve nothing and then what?
it will be very hard to keep up the motivation this way.

"I don't know what do you mean by uncontrolled witness leads to bodhisattvayana?

A first bhumi bodhisattva = realization of the twofold emptiness... not to be equated with 'witness'."

Right, I agree and what you say is what I actually wanted to say in the first place.

I'm sorry if I was not clear. What I mean by "uncontrolled" is: natural liberation due to lack of becoming, poisons, ignorance, etc. Also, maybe I am mistaken here but I was equating "witness" with "self". Every imputation of "existence" in discernable phenomena to me is the same as projecting "self" to dharmas.

So, a better way to state"uncontrolled witness": natural liberation of all the projected "selves" (inner and outer) due to realization of emptiness (which is twofld).

"i see. but how can actually know that you are doing it right? you can do it for years and achieve nothing and then what?
it will be very hard to keep up the motivation this way."

In my experience, if my perception, cognition and relationship with phenomena changes (i.e. attaining a refined mode of becoming, fading the "line" between this and that, inner-outer, etc., or getting flashes of rigpa or pure consciousness) means that I am making progress.

According to Kenneth, if 2nd gear is done correctly, eventually you get to 3rd gear. So if descriptions of 3rd gear don't make sense, to me it means I'm not making progress.

Another way to know if your doing it right is by feeling witness consumption.

I read over and over texts that relate to the witness to check, verify or see if something makes sense. In some way I get a sense of my progress by comparing my descriptions with other people's descriptions of their experience.

I hope this helps.

"Right, I agree and what you say is what I actually wanted to say in the first place.

I'm sorry if I was not clear. What I mean by "uncontrolled" is: natural liberation due to lack of becoming, poisons, ignorance, etc. Also, maybe I am mistaken here but I was equating "witness" with "self". Every imputation of "existence" in discernable phenomena to me is the same as projecting "self" to dharmas.

So, a better way to state"uncontrolled witness": natural liberation of all the projected "selves" (inner and outer) due to realization of emptiness (which is twofld)."

No, if you mean the withdrawal of projections and resting as Self, as I AM, as Witness, this is just the I AM experience. This is Stage 1 of Thusness 7 stages. The twofold emptiness is stage 5 and stage 6 respectively (emptiness of self, emptiness of dharmas)... Do check out that map: awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/...s-of-experience.html

Here is an excerpt from a Buddhist glossary site on the definition of twofold Emptiness:

Two emptinesses (二空) include (1) emptiness of self, the ātman, the soul, in a person composed of the five aggregates, constantly changing with causes and conditions; and (2) emptiness of selves in all dharmas'”each of the five aggregates, each of the twelve fields, and each of the eighteen spheres, as well as everything else with no independent existence. No-self in any dharma implies no-self in a person, but the latter is separated out in the first category. Realization of the emptiness of self in a person will lead to attainment of Arhatship or Pratyekabuddhahood. Bodhisattvas who have realized both emptinesses ascend to the First Ground on their Way to Buddhahood.

As to how this realization relates to Dzogchen/Mahamudra, in Dzogchen according to Loppon Namdrol there is a difference between the "recognition of rigpa" and the "realization of emptiness" or realization of rigpa. (Rigpa means knowledge, and one can have incomplete knowledge) The former is easier to attain and is just the recognition of luminous clarity. The latter only occurs during the third vision of Thodgal (if you practice Thodgal). While for Mahamudra the realization of the twofold emptiness occurs at the yoga of simplicity and one taste. I believe the first yoga, yoga of one pointedness is similar to the "recognition of rigpa".

"No, if you mean the withdrawal of projections and resting as Self, as I AM, as Witness, this is just the I AM experience. This is Stage 1 of Thusness 7 stages. The twofold emptiness is stage 5 and stage 6 respectively (emptiness of self, emptiness of dharmas)... Do check out that map: awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/...s-of-experience.html "

Yeah, I see your point.

Although I have never mentioned resting in the Witness, it was not enough to just state "liberation of projections" when I tried to describe entrance to the first bhumi. So thanks for clarifying that.

So would you say that the realization of rigpa corresponds to entrance to the 10 bhumis?

I may have misunderstood what you meant by "uncontrolled witness", does that mean being a witness, or? What does the "witness" mean here concretely? In my experience, there is no longer the view or sense of being a self or a "Witness" at all after the realization of the twofold emptiness, or in fact even the firstfold emptiness (anatta, emptiness of an atta). Also have you described entrance to first bhumi somewhere in this forum?

As for rigpa, the recognition of rigpa happens before any bhumis, but the realization of emptiness or the realization of rigpa in the sense of the inseparability of clarity and emptiness happens in first bhumi onwards.

As for the 'recognition of rigpa', it is the recognition of Instant Presence and after this recognition the path is to integrate this in everyday experience and movement in a non-dual state of contemplation (there are practices such as mantra recitation, singing song of vajra, doing the vajra dance etc) such that all experiences are 'integrated' in Presence and seen as the non-dual display of one's clarity. This however does not mean you have realized emptiness. This is only the luminous clarity aspect. (This is why imo Thusness's map of insight also applies for a Dzogchen practitioner even though the path is different)

On this point, Loppon Namdrol who studies under Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche (whose teaching retreat I am currently attending in Singapore) states:

"No, the reason is that one does not need to realize emptiness in order to properly practice tregchö, emptiness may remain an inference. But one must have experience of this unconditioned clarity in order to practice tregchö. Eventually, if you practice tregchö long enough you will realize emptiness because that insight will automatically arise within your meditation, and this is predicated on understanding the view of original purity .

N"

(continuation)


"I did. It is pretty straight forward. To put it another way, when a person ceases to reify phenomena in terms of the four extremes, that is the direct perception of emptiness. Until that point, their "emptiness" remains an intellectual sequence of negations; accurate perhaps, but conceptual nevertheless.

The "recognition" of rigpa, which is simply the knowledge (rig pa) about one's state as a working basis for practice, does not require realization of emptiness as a prerequiste, and can't -- since if it did, no one could practice Dzogchen. '

In terms of the four visions, for as long as one continues to reify phenomena, for that long, one will never reach the third vision. This is the principal reason in modern Dzogchen practice, emphasis is placed on the basis through tregchö, rather the path, tögal. If you are a first stage bodhisattva and so on, then the four visions in Dzogchen will be very, very rapid. However, there is no gaurantee that one will realize emptiness merely through practicing tregchö. Of this reason then, practices such as tummo, etc. are also recommended.

N"

Also he states clearly:

Third vision (of Thodgal) = path of seeing

xsurf & Aleandro: There is some really interesting stuff here, but I am missing some of the language. Can either of you point to some pragmatic online references that better clarify "two-fold emptiness", 10 bhumis, etc.?

"(continuation)


"I did. It is pretty straight forward. To put it another way, when a person ceases to reify phenomena in terms of the four extremes, that is the direct perception of emptiness. Until that point, their "emptiness" remains an intellectual sequence of negations; accurate perhaps, but conceptual nevertheless.

The "recognition" of rigpa, which is simply the knowledge (rig pa) about one's state as a working basis for practice, does not require realization of emptiness as a prerequiste, and can't -- since if it did, no one could practice Dzogchen. '

In terms of the four visions, for as long as one continues to reify phenomena, for that long, one will never reach the third vision. This is the principal reason in modern Dzogchen practice, emphasis is placed on the basis through tregchö, rather the path, tögal. If you are a first stage bodhisattva and so on, then the four visions in Dzogchen will be very, very rapid. However, there is no gaurantee that one will realize emptiness merely through practicing tregchö. Of this reason then, practices such as tummo, etc. are also recommended.

N"

Also he states clearly:

Third vision (of Thodgal) = path of seeing"

I definitely needed to be more clear. Sorry about that.

What I meant by "uncontrolled" was:
- a natural rising and ceasing
- not using anything as base of imputation or becoming
- Pure seeing/presence (free of poisons)

We both agree the Witness is the I Am Presence, free of projections.

So, correct me if I'm wrong but if the witness is present (stage 1 in thusness model), and isn't "controlled", defiled, used as support to become, etc., then the witness is realized as empty (5 stage in Thusness' model). Furthermore, if emptiness of "other" is also realized, then a 2-fold emptiness is realized..

@Justin: This book is very helpful, yet more philosophical rather than practical: www.amazon.com/dp/1590300092/ref=rdr_ext_sb_ti_sims_1#_

The 10 bhumis or "grounds" are amahayana model that describes the bodhisattva path to enlightenment. I dont have updated information regarding experiential descriptions of the grounds. I only possses conceptual understanding of this, acquired from reading mahayana texts, Nagarjuna, bodhisattvacharyavatara, etc.

@xsurf I haven't talked about this in the forum because I haven't realized the twfold emptiness, so everything I have said so far comes only from conceptual understanding and hints I've been getting from my own practice. If I'm not mistaken, Im stil going trhrough Thusness' 4th stage.

My practice consists of tibetan preliminaries and yidam deity practice, which, like you say, is basically the integration of rigpa into everyday experience.

Good to know that the 3rd vision corresponds to the path of seeing and to the realization of rigpa.