Beyond 4th Path?

It has been a while since I've posted anything, and I can see there are a lot of new people here (awesome!) so let me begin by saying that I was once a regular here who stopped posting much after 4th path. In know, I know, an all too common story these days. I won't give any excuses.

Right around the time I dropped out there was a lot of discussion, or really more like heated debate, about how things proceed after what we call 4th path. I was really interested in this, but pretty lost. I tried grounding practices and mindfulness type practices and nothing seemed to give me any traction.

Then a while back I started to gravitate toward advaita-style inquiry practice, and started to have a pretty strong sense that something was up right away. I particularly found the question "where am I?" very useful. That has been my primary practice for months now.

Then last Tuesday, May-Day, I was meditating on the question and had what felt like a powerful type of path-moment. There was no cessation that I can recall, but a sudden "implosion" of energy in the middle of the head (and a little in the chest). The typical bliss wave and relaxation followed. It felt a lot like 4th path did, with a sudden shift that seems to have put a lot to rest.

Now I'm noticing - and I cringe a little to say this and reintroduce controversy - that my emotions are very attenuated. Not gone, but just shadows of what they were. What is left is a sense of peace, silence and contentment that is stable so far and very nice.

I'd very much appreciate any feedback, advice or impressions from people who have reached what Kenneth has dubbed the "6th Stage" in his approach.

Glad to see you back online and great description, Ron!

What do you get if you note mind states?

Do you think you might have a reaction if something really awful happened? Personally, I wouldn't mind a real reduction in my responsiveness to a lot of things. I was amazed to read one person's thread, I forget who, in which the individual said he had a breakthrough and he cried for the first time in about a year. I cry almost every day (not necessarily a lot, but I can tear up very easily). Then there's the fear, and the anger, and all the other "load of dung" (to quote Ajahn Brahm). It's kind of a nuisance, to be honest with you. I'm not proud of it, I'm not ashamed of it, it's just the way things are.

EDIT: I have to say that post SE these things aren't as "sticky" as they were. They come up but they aren't nearly as traumatic. That at least is a break.

Ron,
I'd love to hear some more about the new practice. Any details about it would be appreciated.
I've found it funny how so many people here grasp to the idea of how they should experience emotions as they progress. But, spend so much time try to avoid grasping. It seems like some types of grasping/clinging is seen as acceptable.

Metta,
B.

Ron, I don't think what you're describing is all that controversial. I can relate to the attenuated emotional experiences - not a total lack of emotion but an adeptness and a "view" of emotional experiences as clearly conditioned, compound experiences that dramatically reduces their impact on the moment to moment lifestream.

Yes?

And welcome back!

Oh, and let me get on my soapbox for a second here and request that Kenneth himself get this "8 Stages" model down in writing and publish it here. Kenneth, when I visit you later this week expect some serious begging and pleading, maybe even demanding, on this front. Your model is out there and being interpreted by many people, probably both accurately and inaccurately. You need to claim your space, man!

Be forewarned

Hi guys - thanks for posting and giving your support.

@Antero - If I note mind states, it is very weird... I get the thoughts and some physical sensations that would go with emotions, but when I really get down to it and look at the mind states themselves, they are wispy and muted. It doesn't feel like they are gone exactly, but rather that they are far less salient in awareness. I'm not sure if that means it didn't happen or if something else entirely is going on. This is very difficult to put into words.

@Laurel - It was exactly that, my lack of reactivity, that really caught my attention after it happened. The context here is that work has been pretty intense lately and I've frankly been pretty stressed, and then right after it happened, literally within the hour, I was facing situations that normally make me stressed and there was just a lot of calm. The thoughts were the same (worries), some of the physical sensations were the same (tension in the neck and face), but the emotional kick was just not there. It was like I was watching these other things happen. Since then my overall feeling has been really peaceful and things that normally irritate me seem not to irritate me anymore. What is left is just a lot of quiet inside that is very nice.

Cont...

@ B.Rice - So the practice itself is pretty standard advaita technique as far as I understand it, which is to use some question related to the sense of I (the classic one is "who am I") and ask it to oneself frequently. Here's the thing though: you're not trying to get an "answer" in terms of a verbal reply from the mind. Rather, you're attending to any reaction that the body and mind have to the question. With the right question there is a clear visceral sense that the attention is turning toward the "I" and is really checking it out. That is the real practice part of this technique, not the question-asking, but the felt sense of watching the "I" and staying with it and tracking for as long as one can. If it is done long enough it seems to build some energy and momentum of its own and appears to have some good results. I highly recommend giving it a try.

@Chris - Thanks for the assurance that this isn't really controversial and is really a part of the whole package. Knowing that others have navigated this as well is comforting.

BTW: Say hi to Kenneth for me!

Do you think this state/stage related to "the witness" which kenneth writes is the goal of advaita inquiry?

Ron, your journal helped me so much in my practice, thanks! I do not know what 6th stage is but hope cmarti has a good meet up with kenneth!

I always thought that Vipasanna techniques involved 80% or more of the mind and 20% of the heart. That never sat right with me, compassion was never my strong suit except in/right out of a retreat. I found a technique that is rocking my world. Here is a link to the video that introduced it too me, but since it is a small part of the hour talk I'll type the instructions below:

www.tadasanafestival.com/lineup/elena-brower

"Breath in such a way that balances out the resonance and spaciousness within your belly and in your brain. Think about the entire area between the skull and matter of the brain, softening and opening. Think about the area around the stomach, softening and opening. Both areas equally spacious, a reflection of one another, peaceful, sweet. Once these are balanced feel your heart start to open."

I find exploring my sensations, especially related to the above, while in Jhana #5 - 8, is getting me into interesting territory. For the first time in my life I can feel my heart 'open up' and it feels incredible, a new way of experiencing. The world seen through ever more compassionate eyes through a quiet mind (literally).

Ron - interesting about the self inquiry. I also got into a long period of inquiry, even attending some classes. The teacher referred to the inquiry as "natural inquiry" (as opposed to "self inquiry") when it is done after awakening. I then found myself drawn to contemplative prayer (in the style of Christian mystics) and continue to do that now.

"I always thought that Vipasanna techniques involved 80% or more of the mind and 20% of the heart."

It is my fondest wish that people would stop pretending there is a separate "mind" and a separate "heart." Nyet! We are all one big mashup of stuff, not separated. These two parts of our anatomy cannot be separated and are always influencing each other (and even saying it that way is creating a subtle duality where none really exists).

Nice to "see" you Ron.

"Do you think this state/stage related to "the witness" which kenneth writes is the goal of advaita inquiry? "

Yep - my experience is that the witness is the initial experience once one turns attention onto the sense of "I". But it seems to get deeper and morph in ways that are hard to describe. This might seem like a strange way to put it, but it seems as if the witness expands as it is cultivated over time. As it "expands" the sense of I seems to dim or fade. I hope this makes sense.

Ron,

I think you can look at self inquiry as a way of pointing to the current strongest level of selfing going on.

Initially it's the witness apart from experience, as that is dropped it becomes the craving/aversion etc. felt in the body which is hi-lighted by asking the question "Who am I".

Some interesting developments:

My biggest concern about this stage was the potential lack of humanity. After all, what does it mean to have no, or in my case, greatly reduced emotions? Would I be a robot? Could I connect with others? Given that my job is a psychologist, this was a question that had some serious real-world consequences.

Yesterday I had a day of seven clients, one right after the other, and I have to say that I never felt more connected and fully present with them as I do now. They clearly noticed the difference and a couple let me know.

I'm beginning to suspect that what we lump into the basket of "emotions" are actually a wide range of mental phenomena that are very different from one another. We "feel" them and give them the label of "emotions" but they are completely different species of phenomena, as different as an itch is to a mental image.

What seems to have happened is that the strongest most destabilizing emotions no longer resonate. Things like irritation, anger, surprise, boredom, strong desire - the ones that seem to have the most clear bodily correlates - have pretty much exited the scene. What is left are emotions that are most like the brahma viharas. Compassion, belonging, comfort, happiness, ease, wonder... It seems that the emotions most involved in separating me from experience and others, emotions that carve out a special "me" and defend it from some perceived problem, are the ones that are whispy and ineffective now. The ones that keep me connected to experiences and others seem to be intact. The good news for me is that these are mostly nice to experience, so for the most part what I'm feeling is really great.

Another weird thing that is happening: I notice that even if I don't "feel" anger or irritation, the cognitions and even body sensations that correspond to them will come up on their own on cue when something that would have irritated me occurs.

This is a VERY strange experience. It is like a motor that kicks on and starts running even though it is disconnected from the transmission. It just spins and spins with no effect, and then it quickly shuts off without anything to reinforce or feed it.

When it happens I can watch it occur without necessarily feeling it happen, and it is a bit surprising each time I notice it. It really makes the concept of "conditioning" stand out clearly.

My guess is that the reactions like this will continue for some time on their own, and as long as I don't feed them by acting on them they will diminish and maybe even vanish.

It is a good experience - but for sure a very strange one...

"Things like irritation, anger, surprise, boredom, strong desire - the ones that seem to have the most clear bodily correlates - have pretty much exited the scene. What is left are emotions that are most like the brahma viharas. Compassion, belonging, comfort, happiness, ease, wonder...
...
Another weird thing that is happening: I notice that even if I don't "feel" anger or irritation, the cognitions and even body sensations that correspond to them will come up on their own on cue when something that would have irritated me occurs.
...
When it happens I can watch it occur without necessarily feeling it happen, and it is a bit surprising each time I notice it. It really makes the concept of "conditioning" stand out clearly.

My guess is that the reactions like this will continue for some time on their own, and as long as I don't feed them by acting on them they will diminish and maybe even vanish.

It is a good experience - but for sure a very strange one...
- Ron"

What you are describing sounds exactly what happened to me at Kenneth's 6th Stage.

What is left of negative emotions is just a bundle of body sensations that are totally disconnected from lables like 'anger' or 'irritation'. The mental component of the sensation just wasn't there anymore.

As strange as it initally felt, I got used to it pretty fast and afterwards it was impossible to even remember how I felt before.

I have used various techniques after 4th path and the common denominator to all of them is that they somehow refine the sense of self, so targeting the feeling of 'I am' is going directly to the root of the problem and will probably get one pretty far. Quite possbily even 7th stage and beyond.

Great updates, Ron!

Ron, you are doing a very good job of describing what seems to occur because it IS survival and the resulting conditioning that is at play. At least that's my version of it. The existence of the concept of a "me" to defend and protect is the basis of fear, anger, anxiety and other similar experiences. These phenomena are not monolithic, however, so like everything else we can investigate they deconstruct into their component parts, which when disconnected do not carry the power of the engine to the transmission (to use your drive train analogy).

Ron,

Have you looked at any of teh Gary Weber non-dual stuff:

happiness-beyond-thought.com/
happiness-beyond-thought.com/

Eric

So do you actually get the feeling of grinding in the gut, or choking in the chest, that are fear and anger? And do they just kind off pass on through without staying? Sometimes I'll "think" I'm annoyed without really feeling anything, while other times I'll "feel" fear without a cognition to go with it. I don't really like either experience, although the former is preferable, but there's an eeriness to having a feeling with no cognition. Of course I'm nowhere near where you are, but I'm trying to imagine where you are. thanks.

"So do you actually get the feeling of grinding in the gut, or choking in the chest, that are fear and anger? And do they just kind off pass on through without staying? Sometimes I'll "think" I'm annoyed without really feeling anything, while other times I'll "feel" fear without a cognition to go with it. I don't really like either experience, although the former is preferable, but there's an eeriness to having a feeling with no cognition. Of course I'm nowhere near where you are, but I'm trying to imagine where you are. thanks. "

I do get those feelings, but at first I don't recognize it as anger, fear, etc. The sensation comes up and then after a bit of time I'm like "oh - that's anger? I guess it is..." There is a clear perception that there is anger, but not that "I'm angry", if that makes any sense.

However there was the first hole punched in this thing today when I felt a pretty clear flash of irritation while driving. It was so out of the blue that I noticed it right away and was a little startled by it. It was pretty mild in the scheme of things, but given it's absence in the past week or so it really stood out - like a cough in a silent room. It was the first time in a while the feeling really glommed onto the "I" in a good while. However, an interesting thing was that it was gone almost as fast as it came.

For those that are more experienced with this - do you return to having some emotions now and then? Is this a kind of hiccup, or what?

Hey Ron- Having experienced much the same thing there was an initial after glow period and then this began to fade and some of the old stuff showed up in a more subtle form. I can't speak for anyone else but my own experience since has been that emotions do not solidify in the same way, but it also doesn't feel right to say that I don't experience things like anxiety or irritatition, it's just that when I do it presents primarily as physical without the sense that it is a coherent solid entity. I had one experience a couple of months after where there was an extreme amount of anxiety for several minutes. Although the experience was registered almost entirely physically it was incredibly unpleasant none-the-less, so it seems I still have access to just about every thing, but the egoic emotions continue to be showing themselves in progressively subtler forms. This is my own experience, and yours and anyone else's may be different.

Bill

"
For those that are more experienced with this - do you return to having some emotions now and then? Is this a kind of hiccup, or what?"

Where you are at, I'd say they will come back just perhaps they are seen much clearer than before. Perhaps there will seem like less energy put into them and the trigger sensations will be easier to simply watch with fabricated equanimity. It depends on what your ultimate objective is, how much intent is involved and what is investigated in practice to then turn this process off completely, triggers sensations and all as even the triggers sensations have a cause for their arising.

Nick

" It depends on what your ultimate objective is, how much intent is involved and what is investigated in practice to then turn this process off completely, triggers sensations and all as even the triggers sensations have a cause for their arising.

Nick"

Hello Nikolai- Could you say more about this, and how this shows up for you in your experience? Curious. Thank you.