Beyond 4th Path?

" I would especially like to hear from the dissenters; are there any folks who believe they are at the 8th stage or beyond but still can direct the attention to directly access jhanas?
- Kenneth Folk

...till the unsatisfactoriness (in my own experience thus far) is seen to be simply how the mind 'lunges' onto objects ignoring the rest of the field of experience. That is unsatisfactoriness for myself currently. The movement does not result in affect anymore, but it does give rise to rumbling sensations in the body, which only arise when the mind is narrowing focus.
- Nikolai"

@Kenneth
It is simply too painful to do any jhanic practice these days. I can manipulate my attention in some ways but the jhanic qualities of the first four jhanas are completely absent. If I was introduced to jhanas the first time, I wouldn't be able to tell these forced states apart. In my experience 8th stage and jhanic absorption are mutually exclusive, but still absorption can sometimes happen to me when I am working with another yogi.

@Nikolai
This lunging of the mind onto objects causing the narrowing of the experience is exactly how I am experiencing unsatisfactoriness these days. It has become apparent to me that thinking is a form of attachment to objects, persons and ideas.

"@Kenneth
It is simply too painful to do any jhanic practice these days. I can manipulate my attention in some ways but the jhanic qualities of the first four jhanas are completely absent. If I was introduced to jhanas the first time, I wouldn't be able to tell these forced states apart. In my experience 8th stage and jhanic absorption are mutually exclusive, but still absorption can sometimes happen to me when I am working with another yogi.

@Nikolai
This lunging of the mind onto objects causing the narrowing of the experience is exactly how I am experiencing unsatisfactoriness these days. It has become apparent to me that thinking is a form of attachment to objects, persons and ideas.

"

Thinking can be apperceived as part of the whole field of experience but if it becomes the 'object' of a tendency to narrow, it will provide fertile ground for unsatisfactoriness. 'Thought' is not the problem, but the narrowing of mind to make an 'object' out of parts of the field of experience. What if there was no narrowing? Would thoughts not arise? Well, maybe not much at all unless there is a trigger for them that has nothing to do with 'narrowing'. From here, a thought of what I am typing and of the beatles music heard is apperceived at the same time as simply a distinction within the continuum of distinctions. Not unsatisfactory, just sense contact

This idea that thought does not arise being the final goal does not compute unless there is clarification about what type of thought. A mind consciousness or aggregate of clinging? what of pure sense contact Buddhist style, a thought hitting the mind door without the lunging?

The 'I' with lunging is the self-narrative Gary Weber refers to having dropped away in my opinion. I'd distinguish the type of thought that is to be worked with. happinessbeyondthought.blogspot.com.au/2...tly-eliminate-i.html

"Antero: It is simply too painful to do any jhanic practice these days. I can manipulate my attention in some ways but the jhanic qualities of the first four jhanas are completely absent. If I was introduced to jhanas the first time, I wouldn't be able to tell these forced states apart. In my experience 8th stage and jhanic absorption are mutually exclusive, but still absorption can sometimes happen to me when I am working with another yogi.
"

a narrowing focus version of jhana sucks.

A jhana that has no narrowing is simply recognizing aspects of jhana that are seemingly representing the structure of mind. They do not hurt nor suck nor are unsatisfactory as far as i can see in my own experience. Have you tried this pointer Antero? It has led to several shifts by a number of us already:

thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com.au/2012/...peripherycentre.html

What if you did jhana from this angle? ** The periphery/centre approach as opposed to the narrow approach?

**try seeing the aspects of the arupas without the narrowing of focus. Try including the peripheral angle at the same time as each of the jhana aspects arise. Note, it isnt taking the periphery as 'object', it is allowing the way the periphery is already cognised by the brain to inform how the centre is cognised as well. Same for the fields of vision, sound, touch- surface and within, taste, smell and thought. Peripherally cognised thought as far as I am concerned, is apperceptively perceived.

Nick, will you please attribute your quotes clearly? Remember, lots of people read these threads and cannot go back to find out who said what. I know that you are an English teacher, so you know how to do this.

Thanks!

Kenneth

"Nick, will you please attribute your quotes clearly? Remember, lots of people read these threads and cannot go back to find out who said what. I know that you are an English teacher, so you know how to do this.

Thanks!

Kenneth"

Hi kenneth.
Which quote have I not cited? I think the only quote I have used is the Thanissaro one. otherwise it's all my own thoughts written down.

I'm a shiatsu student now and Australians speak and write terribly.




P.S. If it is the gary thingie: happinessbeyondthought.blogspot.com.au/2...tly-eliminate-i.html
Nick

"It is simply too painful to do any jhanic practice these days. I can manipulate my attention in some ways but the jhanic qualities of the first four jhanas are completely absent. If I was introduced to jhanas the first time, I wouldn't be able to tell these forced states apart. In my experience 8th stage and jhanic absorption are mutually exclusive, but still absorption can sometimes happen to me when I am working with another yogi."-Antero

Yes, this corresponds to my own experience. If I lead another yogi into jhana, I find that "this" (my) mind follows the instructions that are coming out of this (my) mouth and this (my) mind/body falls into jhana. But "I" am completely unable to turn this mind toward jhana. In other words, jhana only seems to happen in the second person. Odd. But this is similar to the current experience of feelings (the subjective component of emotions). Owen Becker recently taught me his adaptation of Ken Wilber's 3,2,1 technique. Here is how it goes for me, having done many iterations of it over the last 3 days:

Q: How does it feel? (3rd person)
A: It feels afraid (or contracted, or happy, or excited, or aversive, or hopeful, etc.)

Q: What would you say to it? (2nd person)
A: It's okay, go ahead and feel that. (As though reassuring and nurturing another person; it's very sweet and compassionate.)

Q: How do *I* feel? (1st person)
A: (Silence... *I* don't feel any way at all. It's a nonsense question. There is nobody here to answer that. And yet, there is a profound sense of well-being whenever the question is asked.)

This is a great technique, highly recommended. Thanks, Owen (and Ken Wilber)!

"Which quote have I not cited? I think the only quote I have used is the Thanissaro one. otherwise it's all my own thoughts written down." -Nick

OK, sorry not to be clear. I'm talking about your posts #s 77 and 78. You reproduced two quotes by Antero, but the @ symbol makes it look like the quotes are from me and you, respectively, when in both cases it is Antero who is being quoted.

The key to this is to imagine that you are a lurker who is reading this forum for the first time. Will she/he know who said what? If so, your attributions are good. If not, make it clear!

"I'm a shiatsu student now and Australians speak and write terribly."-NickHalay

Ha, ha, very funny.

Where do thoughts come from? Considering the nature of objects causing the narrowing of the focus (objects of sense pleasure) and narrative mind images (thoughts related to the temporal continuity of self, remembering and planning thoughts), it is clear that the processes of selfing still have some momentum left.

"a narrowing focus version of jhana sucks.

A jhana that has no narrowing is simply recognizing aspects of jhana that are seemingly representing the structure of mind. They do not hurt nor suck nor are unsatisfactory as far as i can see in my own experience. Have you tried this pointer Antero? It has led to several shifts by a number of us already:

thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com.au/2012/...peripherycentre.html

- Nikolai"

When I chatted with Mumuwu and read your writing on the pointer, I recognized it immediately. This kind of undifferentiated way of perceiving has become my main way of experiencing of late. Btw does this sound familiar ?

'Sky gazing: direct the gaze towards the space between you and external phenomena"
- The Dalai Lama, Dzogchen: the heart essence of the great perfection p.56

In my experience thoughts can be experienced from this expanded perspective although they tend to become more muted and disappear as this state comes to the foreground. It has not manifested itself as a state of absorption, so it is difficult for me to say how it relates to jhanas. For me jhana means a state in which part of the experience is sectioned off and nowadays my mind does not want to go there. It wants to have it panoramic and unimpeded, which means that the qualities of arupa jhanas are experienced all at the same time and not separated.

When I sit with the group I teach, I am just letting the mind be as it is and watch how tension in the body and mind evaporates. The field of experience is uniform from the centre to the periphery, the mind clings to nothing and the sensations and occasional mind images flow through the clarity unobstructed. There does not seem to be no other form of practice for me except letting go of any fabrication of the mind and just rest.

(cont.)

In my experience there came a point between the shift from the 7th to 8th stage stage where it became impossible to note mind states. Before that it would be possible to note the "wholesome" mind states that remain at the sixth stage, but at a certain point when trying to note mind states I couldn't find them and found instead only a silent, vast, openness. I do not know if this is unique to my own experience, but it may relate to the inability to access the first four jhanas if this is a shared experience since they too disappeared around this time. To echo everyone else I have found directing the attention towards a goal to be painful, but I still at times allow my attention to sink into the body in a way that feels pleasant, but if any force is applied I experience unpleasant tension.

"It has not manifested itself as a state of absorption, so it is difficult for me to say how it relates to jhanas. For me jhana means a state in which part of the experience is sectioned off and nowadays my mind does not want to go there. It wants to have it panoramic and unimpeded, which means that the qualities of arupa jhanas are experienced all at the same time and not separated.

When I sit with the group I teach, I am just letting the mind be as it is and watch how tension in the body and mind evaporates."

Antero, does the evaporation of the tension feel blissful at first? Could you look at jhanas as describing the qualities present as tension evaporates in the absence of fabrication rather than as an absorption state. For me if I sit with panoramic awareness there is bliss that arises first, then the mind gets progressively stiller, etc. which could be described using traditional jhanic factors (i.e. those in the suttas) vs things such as width of attention, absorption, etc.)

"
Where do thoughts come from? Considering the nature of objects causing the narrowing of the focus (objects of sense pleasure) and narrative mind images (thoughts related to the temporal continuity of self, remembering and planning thoughts), it is clear that the processes of selfing still have some momentum left.


"

Hi antero,

How about when the mind simply cognises in the cognized but without narrowing. Narrowing leads the mind to select a mass of patticles and attach solidity to it, a name and concept and a relationship with the now perceived 'object'. But what if when all that tendency is dropped, the mind becoming aware of a continuous bombardment of sense contact, nothing being sectioned off, narrowed onto, but all details still avalailable for the mind/body organism to have attention fall on. How can attention work without this mental narrowing?

Considering the nature of the habit of making 'objects' out of the field of experience so that there is a subjective experience reacting towards them, what if that habit were dropped, yet the mind/body organism kept functioning perfectly fine without making 'objects' out of particles and 'floating atoms' etc?

Have you try tried training the mind to drop that habit? When it is dropped continuously, experience then becomes a 360 degree continuous soup of sensations where there is no use for making and creating 'objects' to establish relationships with a subjective experience, there is just cause for effect.

I found this particualr practice, weird as it is, to be extremely quick at teaching how the mind narrows focus as well as how to relinquish that habit and then apply it to the entire field of experience.

thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com.au/2012/...oolbox-floaters.html

I may not be explaining myself well, appropriate words sometimes don't come.

If you really want to flesh this model out, especially for any post '8th stagers' the question below would be insightful and shed light on possible similarities and differences. I do not know what 8th stage really looks like. I'm trying to get a picture of it. As far as I have seen in previous baseline shifts, there has been a dropp change and disappearance of affective chargers, the changes they go through are quite significant in my experience as i progressed.

I do not have any sense of agency, 'being', me-ness arising currently however I do not think this is done. There is a residual tendency to narrow focus in a subtle way which occurs for seconds at a time which although not suffering at all, is unsatisfactory as I experience much longer periods of apperceptive awareness, 360 continuous sense contact.

Nick

Do affective charges go through any changes in your 8th and 9th? Do they drop away?
Is there any change in the visual field at 8th?
What is a sense of 'agency' and 'ownership' exactly? Daniel Ingram reported that agency dropped away at 4th path. How does it differ at 8th?
If the 8th stage is the sense of agency changing, how does it change?
What does 'almost compete loss of agency' look like at 9th, and 8th?
What about changes in the fabricating tendencies of the mind? Does it seem different at 8th? How is 'tension' experienced?
How is 'desire' experienced at 8th? How does it manifest?
Is this model necessarily linear or are you describing individual selfing systems you have encountered along with way to shut them down?
Do you have an altered understanding of rigpa based on your current experience vs. your original take on the term?
Does each stage boil down to more and more subtle levels of craving/aversion?
How does craving/aversion change at each stage to 8th and 9th?

"When I chatted with Mumuwu and read your writing on the pointer, I recognized it immediately. This kind of undifferentiated way of perceiving has become my main way of experiencing of late. Btw does this sound familiar ?

"

Yes, i had two different shifts close together. The one you describe where the periphery informs all sense contact, and one afterwards which showed much more the obvious narrowing and the ability to be able to continuously drop it in favour of the 360 degree sense contact soup of sensations where sense contact seemingly occurs simultaneously, with no attention bouncing (narrowing?) from sense door to sense door.

That pointer, when a friend applied it for a period of time ( a number of days) , it stuck as the way the brain cognsied. I was sort of lucky it stuck within minutes of playing with it. Perhaps there is jhana fabricated with clinging, and then there is 'jhana' (maybe simply the remnants of the jhana's of the pragmatic crowd) which represent structure of mind. No narrowing, no absorption. But why does jhana have to be about 'absorption? Cos the visuddhimagga established that? Recognsing the arupa aspects within the peripheral way of cognising happens only when the mind is triggered to recognise the concept of 'jhana' for myself , or whatever is left of what i conceived as a 'jhana' previously.

The remnants of jhana recognised within the peripheral manner of cognising without any narrowing, wont look like what one probably used to consider jhana. Yet, there is something to it, and it leads to something profound after the 8th.

If one can experience sense contact seemingly at the same time as other sense contact without 'lingering/narrowing' on one particualr sense door (due to a peripheral manner of cognising), then it should become clearer how to experience 'jhana' from this angle.

"Considering the nature of objects causing the narrowing of the focus (objects of sense pleasure) and narrative mind images (thoughts related to the temporal continuity of self, remembering and planning thoughts), it is clear that the processes of selfing still have some momentum left.

"

Would this mean a thought (not images) has been made into an 'object' for a subjective experience to establish a relationship with? What if there was no 'objectification' of the thought ? If one experiences the simultaneous arising of sense contact, where for example, one can stare at an object with the eyes and hear music without attention bouncing between the two doors dulling the expericne (a la attention bounce), it might make more sense. Both sense contact are experienced simultaneously, as there is no lingering or narrowing onto one sense contact ignoring other contact.Thus no attention bouncing from sense contact to a sensation in the chest then a sublte sense of 'selfing', bounce bounce bounce. This bouncing gives rise to an object within the field of experience, segregated from the 'whole'. Now there are 'parts' of the whole where the attention can bounce to. The illusion of the attention bounce. When this 'objectification' is dropped, then a 'thought' can also be triggered still. It just wont have any 'I', 'me' ness to it. Not a self-narrative thought which has become an 'object' for a subjective experience, just another sensation within the soup of sensations, cognised by the brain without problem. Attention wont be bouncing onto an 'object' termed 'thought'. It will be simply cognising phenomena, which in hindsight can be conventionally termed 'thought, touch, sight, sound, smell, taste,' but really, there seems like no distinction within the field of the soup of sensations. Yet everything functions without problem. Does this make sense?

"In my experience there came a point between the shift from the 7th to 8th stage stage where it became impossible to note mind states. Before that it would be possible to note the "wholesome" mind states that remain at the sixth stage, but at a certain point when trying to note mind states I couldn't find them and found instead only a silent, vast, openness. I do not know if this is unique to my own experience, but it may relate to the inability to access the first four jhanas if this is a shared experience since they too disappeared around this time.

- WF566163"

Those two phenomena appear to be closely related. For me too jhanas and mind states went at the same time.

"Antero, does the evaporation of the tension feel blissful at first? Could you look at jhanas as describing the qualities present as tension evaporates in the absence of fabrication rather than as an absorption state. For me if I sit with panoramic awareness there is bliss that arises first, then the mind gets progressively stiller, etc. which could be described using traditional jhanic factors (i.e. those in the suttas) vs things such as width of attention, absorption, etc.)

- Mumuwu"

It used to feel blissful. Sometimes when sitting there were even some pleasant buzzing vibrations in the body that could be described as jhanic factors arising. Although for me it never developed into a solid state of absorption, I could imagine relating it with sutta jhanas (although my knowledge is limited in that regard).

Nowadays dropping of the tension feels mildly pleasant, more like a subtle sense of relief. And that is just about all that happens when I sit. Except for the mind space getting somewhat more tranquil.

Update:

The honeymoon phase of this shift appears to be over. I'm feeling "normal", but I can tell that my baseline is different than it was a few weeks ago. Here's where things stand at the moment:

- I do experience emotions, even negative ones, but they are very faint and seeing them and letting go of them is an almost automatic process now.

- my overall mood is one of contentment and calm

- the thoughts and bodily sensations associated with strong emotions do arise, but they don't create strong emotion. This is the strangest part of the overall shift. I can see my body tense up, hear the mind say "that's not fair", but they simply don't add up to anger the way they used to. It used to be that 1+1=2 but now it feels like 1+1= .02...

- my mindfulness is stronger. Moment to moment awareness was strong before, but now it seems to be very much stuck in the "on" position. I don't find myself daydreaming or inattentive that much at all. I wonder if because there are no aversive moods I'm more willing to rest in the moment...

- there is definitely more to do. I can sense that this can get even better, however, I'm not sure that the enquiry practice is still the way to go. I'm going to experiment and see what feels right.

Ron, that maps almost identically to what I experience.

"Hi antero,

How about when the mind simply cognises in the cognized but without narrowing. Narrowing leads the mind to select a mass of patticles and attach solidity to it, a name and concept and a relationship with the now perceived 'object'. But what if when all that tendency is dropped, the mind becoming aware of a continuous bombardment of sense contact, nothing being sectioned off, narrowed onto, but all details still avalailable for the mind/body organism to have attention fall on. How can attention work without this mental narrowing?

Considering the nature of the habit of making 'objects' out of the field of experience so that there is a subjective experience reacting towards them, what if that habit were dropped, yet the mind/body organism kept functioning perfectly fine without making 'objects' out of particles and 'floating atoms' etc?

Have you try tried training the mind to drop that habit? When it is dropped continuously, experience then becomes a 360 degree continuous soup of sensations where there is no use for making and creating 'objects' to establish relationships with a subjective experience, there is just cause for effect.

- Nikolai"

What you say about continuous bombardment of sense contact without narrowing of the focus does sound familiar to me. I have found lately that after the focus narrows for a moment and lunges onto a sense object, it quickly returns to the state of least effort. All mental effort, including narrative thinking, is recognized and automatically dropped.

I experimented with the centre-periphery pointer for a while and what I got was a slight increase of the energy at the head and the clarity and spaciousness coming a bit more to the foreground, but it did not really change anything for me. The quality of the centre and periphery of the attention seem to be quite similar to start with.

"What you say about continuous bombardment of sense contact without narrowing of the focus does sound familiar to me. I have found lately that after the focus narrows for a moment and lunges onto a sense object, it quickly returns to the state of least effort. All mental effort, including narrative thinking, is recognized and automatically dropped.

I experimented with the centre-periphery pointer for a while and what I got was a slight increase of the energy at the head and the clarity and spaciousness coming a bit more to the foreground, but it did not really change anything for me. The quality of the centre and periphery of the attention seem to be quite similar to start with.

"

Hi antero,

Do you still experience 'rumblings', 'tensions', 'out of the norm' sensations in the body of varying degrees of intensity? In situations where emotional reactions would occur, are there any situations that still seem to trigger some response within the mind and body? Chest, throat etc? or have the ceased to arise?

Nick

"Hi antero,

Do you still experience 'rumblings', 'tensions', 'out of the norm' sensations in the body of varying degrees of intensity? In situations where emotional reactions would occur, are there any situations that still seem to trigger some response within the mind and body? Chest, throat etc? or have the ceased to arise?

Nick"

It seems like those sensations are gone. I haven't had any of those in the body for some time now. A while back I experienced a calm phase like this one with no trigger sensations in the body, but after a while they came back.

I don't if this sticks, but at least for the time being the trigger sensations are completely absent and instead there is openness, clarity, stillness and spontaneity of a whole new level.

In the past I have experienced many cycles like this, unpleasant sensations in the body followed by a new level of clarity. There does not seem to be any effort required from my part, just accepting and letting go.

Antero

Kenneth, thank you for posting this and deep respect for everyone else sharing their wisdom.

I find some things *ahem* unsatisfactory about this map.

1) Where does initial emptiness realization fit in here? Having the rug completely pulled out from underneath would seem to be deep structure.

2) It seems a common phase to discover and identify with the Witness that then fades as a Bahiya type realization sinks in (In the seeing, just the seen)

"
2) It seems a common phase to discover and identify with the Witness that then fades as a Bahiya type realization sinks in (In the seeing, just the seen)
"

In my experience, this is what happens at stage 7, 'the stick that stirs the fire then burns its self out'.

"1) Where does initial emptiness realization fit in here? Having the rug completely pulled out from underneath would seem to be deep structure."

I hope Kenneth will answer your question himself, Orasis, but I can tell you that for me that realization/view has not changed unless maybe I could say it has deepened. It is not on the same "plane" as the other things being discussed here. I still hold that realization/view to be extremely important in the scheme of things. And, once again, there are many facets to this awakening process and they seem to all live in harmony.

So to my way of seeing this Kenneth's model is describing a particular path which is probably on one or two of the planes on the jewel of awakening.

There is no rug