Devotion and awakening

Laurel, good questions. I have a few comments:

1. When people sit in silence all the time there is no way to know what they're doing except to listen to their version of it in an interview. If the teacher is not aware of what is really going on "in there" then it cannot be addressed. If the teacher isn't aware of what progress looks like/sounds like because they have not had any themselves then the cause is lost. It's really very easy to figure out what someone is doing and sort of "where" they are just by asking the appropriate questions. I say this from experience, not supposition.

2. A student must want to do the right things and must know how to do them. Without both of those things (motivation and technique) operating together any progress that is made is just lucky. I know some students who don't really want to make progress they way you have. They're left to that for years and years and years because they don't have a teacher at all, don't have an awakened or knowledgeable teacher, or don't really want to do anything but talk about their daily life, personality traits, pop psychology - -what we call their "stuff."

As for how to talk to these kinds of people, be gently honest. That seems to work best. It helps also to know when to walk away because sometimes these things aren't fixable by us.

I think it can take a while (or never) to realize that the instructions are meant to be followed *exactly*. When a teacher says "now pay attention to the sensation of the breath..." they don't mean to sort of half think about it vaguely or intermittently while also wondering what's for dinner. The instruction means to pay attention to exactly that, with 100% attention, as if it is a matter of life and death. Of course that's very challenging, and takes a lot of practice. Not everyone has the motivation. Some people may have to work a lot harder than others to develop the ability. One of the benefits of the pragmatic dharma forums/etc is that there are clear examples of detailed instructions and motivational stories of good results.

"As for how to talk to these kinds of people, be gently honest. That seems to work best. It helps also to know when to walk away because sometimes these things aren't fixable by us."

Truth.

I'll wager a couple guesses:

(1) Most people don't seem to know about the noting practice we do. That's unfortunate, because noting is idiot-proof. This is likely owing to the feedback mechanism in it. If you're doing it, you know you're doing it. If you're not doing it, you know you're not doing it, and you start doing it.

(2) Not having the maps. The maps offer encouragement. If you don't have the maps and hit 3rd nana, you may dial back your practice, despite your best intentions to follow the teacher's directions. If you know the A&P is right over the hill, you might double-down on your practice at this point.

Also, in some cases the maps might let you know what to look for to get out of the current nana and get into the next one, but I'm not sure about that. I'm beginning to think that if you just note your ass off, you'll get where you need to go.

You know, I think I would be one of those people that never got past A&P if I had started retreats earlier in my life. I came to this practice later in life and had lots of solitary pursuits which really bled my mind dry.... or at least made me get less totally sucked up in my thoughts. After three days backpacking by yourself, you realize that your mind isn't the life of the party anymore... I think a lot of people who are in the early nanas during retreat are just slowly losing momentum and only get moments of mindfullness (so to speak). That plus a good dose of mushroom darkness from teacher AND practioner. For example, almost no one says during group sessions "here's what I understand the instructions to be, this is what I'm doing, and this is the result. Do you have any suggestions?" And the teachers rarely force the conversation directly into that format. EDIT: I don't know who's "fault" that is, I can imagine that for some practioners, enforcing this format would be like trying to push water up a hill.

"After three days backpacking by yourself, you realize that your mind isn't the life of the party anymore..."

That sounds really cool. I think spending a lot of time in nature does some similar things to the mind that vipassana does.

I think you're right. I hear people talk about how they've been meditating for 10 years and then they run on about the kinds of hassles they're still experiencing, which result from personalizing everything, worrying about whether they're "good" enough, spinning around with fears and confusion, all of which they have a vague hope will settle down "some day." That used to be me. It still often is me. I think they don't know that there is actually a way to end this suffering (the 4th Noble Truth). They think this exists for people like the Dalai Lama, but not them. They think their teachers have "it" but that the teachers are giants living in some other level of reality, unavailable to them.

My impression of teachers I've had is that they know full well what a path attainment is and where it leads, and that they've gone through it, several times. There may be some who haven't, but I have read things these people have written and it's clear that they know all this stuff, even if they don't believe anyone ever gets beyond 2nd path. Jack Kornfield (not one of my teachers, but obviously a major inspiration for the whole endeavor) even writes frankly about the progress of insight in the later chapters of several of his books. But I think most people imagine that they have to go to Asia for 5 years to get anywhere close to what he's describing, and in the meantime they're grateful just to have a taste of quiet for a week out of the year or for half an hour a day.

The flip side, of course, is that it's scary to go through this process. I've had some of the worst experiences of my inner life on this path. One thing that I find simultaneously wonderful and disorienting is that I don't know what my experience of the world will be like a few months from now, let alone a year or more.

Here's the thing -- it's REALLY HARD to change the way you perceive reality.

That's what we're asking people to do. That's what is required. They have to stop seeing the same old stuff. This is the equivalent of teaching fish about water. They swim in it all day and night but it is ASSUMED. Making progress on the path is learning that there is a path, a way, to observe phenomena (including one's self) and see how it operates in all it's gory detail. That's what changes us.

Agreed. It's also really hard to paint and sculpt like Michelangelo. Yet in 15th and 16th century Florence, the activity of painting and sculpture was publicly valued, it was supported, and there was a flourishing community of artists and patrons that made it their business to devote everything they had to producing the best works of art the world had ever known. People were not content with mediocrity, with business as usual; they strove to do what had hitherto been believed impossible. They quarreled, were competitive, they wrote dueling treatises, they established studios, and they worked their hearts out, and look at the result.

The pragmatic dharma community has something in common with that system. Obviously there are differences, but what we have here is a group of people who are validating awakening as something we can actually accomplish. We are not satisfied with business as usual; in addition, we are publicly discussing with great passion what contributes to awakening, and while we realize that competing with one another is a form of ego-projection detrimental to our project, the inspiration of other people daily experiencing realizations spurs us on to do the same. There is a synergy in a community like this, which I think has a lot to do with why people are getting enlightened here. It may seem compulsive to post one's sits on a practice thread, but it promotes that sense of a community of dedicated practitioners that are accomplishing what is difficult, but by no means impossible.

Laurel: Thinking back on your journal though, you seemed to have a pretty difficult time. Would you honestly have ever gotten stream entry without knowing the maps?

I would guess as soon as many yogis hit the 3Cs and meditation "stops working", they get discouraged and back off.


(edit: this was in response to #150. Catching up I see this was basically addressed)

I don't have experience with IMS, but I believe I reached the early stage of A+P in my first Goenka retreat. In retrospect, it was probably counterproductive to get that far and be let loose upon the world without any clear idea of what was happening, no community virtual or otherwise to support my practice, and no prior structured practice. Pretty typical chronic yogi story I suppose. It's a little like going through detox for an addiction, getting it out of your system, then going back to your old life. Good intention, some good technology, bad plan.

Also, although I carried a feeling of needing to meditate for a long time, I never had the motivation to fully practice with all my energy until I saw these forums and saw that - no offense - "average" people were having so much success.

It's a little ironic to think that, far from subverting the ideals of community, pragmatic dharma forums have demonstrated the power of a true culture of awakening, "sangha."

"It's a little ironic to think that, far from subverting the ideals of community, pragmatic dharma forums have demonstrated the power of a true culture of awakening, "sangha." "

Absolutely. What I said about community in an earlier post--about people visiting you when you're sick and whatnot--is one model of how a supportive community can function. Our virtual community can't do that, but what it does do is give support to one thing in particular--awakening. Over and over again, when people like me get sidetracked in their practice, other forum members will gently point them back to the task at hand. There's a day-to-day vigilance that, if a yogi takes on the practice, keeps him or her on track, practicing skillfully and working through whatever hindrances come up. It's a highly specialized kind of support, but it turns out to be exactly what's required to tackle the work of awakening.

I also think that the people who are attracted to this practice and who stay with it are self-selected to make progress, not all at the same rate, but progress nonetheless. Chris pointed to motivation. That is indeed a key factor, along with the precision of the teachings and the relentless (yes, I mean that) support of the day-to-day community of people whose primary aim in life is awakening. Without it, my conviction would easily dissipate, because in my daily life I find no support for undertaking such an outrageous thing. Indeed, everywhere I look I find support for dropping the whole idea and getting a hobby, learning some good relaxation techniques, and chilling out. Even with this specialized support I've frequently wondered whether I should do just that.

So I guess I've worked it out in my own mind now, FWIW.

One more thing: my local bricks-and-mortar sangha has a gifted and highly realized teacher, good teachings, and excellent programs, yet I think there are a lot of people with low-level practices who hang about because such an establishment offers rewards for them, in allowing them to be associated with a set of ideals that are highly attractive, for good reasons. It's just like going to church. As with a church, there will be a certain percentage of people who are deeply committed to the process of awakening. For them, I think the sangha I have in mind could provide the necessary support. I also wish to stress that the hangers-on do much good work and I do not disparage them in the least; I just recognize that they are not making much progress toward the task of awakening.

In contrast, though, the online forums have a much higher percentage of dedicated practitioners because the forums don't really appeal to people in the long term who aren't interested in pursuing these particular teachings. I'm not saying that good, sincere people don't exist outside of our community, only that those who stay are willing to undertake this specific approach to awakening. This is also a factor in our remarkable pattern of attainments.

Please forgive me if I seem to be belaboring these points, but I've been wondering about these issues ever since I started here. I don't think the Buddha could ever have foreseen such a venue as this, but as Kenneth says, we are going places that the ancients did not imagine, and that's the right way to look at it.

"Indeed, everywhere I look I find support for dropping the whole idea and getting a hobby, learning some good relaxation techniques, and chilling out."

I advocate all this with the exception of the dropping out part.

I would probably try to relax and chill out in the most Type A way possible, though. If there wasn't a Mastering the Core Teachings of Dicking Around, I would have to write it.

"in my daily life I find no support for undertaking such an outrageous thing."

I couldn't agree more with everything you said JLC, but that line really hit home. It's all too true in my experience and KFDh and resources like this are, despite their limitations, invaluable.

"If there wasn't a Mastering the Core Teachings of Dicking Around, I would have to write it."

Do you have a link? I was thinking of publishing my method for navigating the dark night, which involved watching 3 hours a day of Battlestar Galactica. Highly recommended

"Do you have a link? I was thinking of publishing my method for navigating the dark night, which involved watching 3 hours a day of Battlestar Galactica. Highly recommended "

Not bad. I dealt with dark night the first time around by lifting weights and eating burgers. Second time it hit me was on retreat, though, were none of those things - indeed, no distractions - were available. Let that be a cautionary tale about relying too much upon distractions to deal with negative feelings.