Dimensions of Human Development

Here's a bit of fun which can be had with such a dimensional model of development:

When talking of developmental dimensions, I get the image of axes on graph paper, you know, x,y,z dimensions originating from some point.

What is that origin point in human development? Do all axes originate there? Is there some analogue to "below zero" on some of the axes (i.e. on the other side of the origin)? What's the role of time - is that just another dimension? What does that mean wrt. "sudden" vs "gradual" development?

If "what I am" in this model is some notion of a volume spanning these developmental axes, defined by "where I'm at" on each axis, and that volume doesn't contain the origin - what does that mean, if anything?

I'd be careful about getting overly, um, quantitative, arithmetic or geometrical with this stuff. The point was to develop language that helps us talk about development. I see what you're getting at and it points out just how silly this kind of thing can get. I'd like to avoid the extremes, which also hopefully helps us avoid the silliness.

I think I erred when I compared this to econometrics. Econometrics is "out there," too, but this stuff.... this stuff really can't be quantified much all

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this stuff really can't be quantified much all

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Exactly...So why the thread?
Arising and passing... and you trying to put it all in nice neat boxes? Why? So it makes more "sense" to "you" ?
Very confused as to the purpose of this thread. Using words to describe what words can't describe. Fail.

B.

"Exactly...So why the thread?
Arising and passing... and you trying to put it all in nice neat boxes? Why? So it makes more "sense" to "you" ?
Very confused as to the purpose of this thread. Using words to describe what words can't describe. Fail.

B."

Hi B.

I you're confused as to the purpose of this thread that would be because you'd like it to make "sense" to "you", right? Is it really a matter of failing or winning? Why are you asking?

Cheers,
Florian

Chris, have you not forgotten physical development?

"One example of that in my mind is that contemplative development often runs smack into and conflicts with habitual behaviors - psychology." - Chris

Agreed, though "conflicts" ... I don't know. Habits become noticeable whenever conditions change. If getting up ealier in order to meditate is such a change (for example), sleeping habits will be exposed.

Contemplating the habits themselves, as they become evident, can be strong practice.

"I'd be careful about getting overly, um, quantitative, arithmetic or geometrical with this stuff." - Chris

I was actually having a bit of fun with it, but not making fun of it, just to see how far it went. I'm particularly pleased with the time dimension of the imagery.

I think the Integral crowd take it to the extreme, and I don't like that at all for some reason. I still think it's good to stop and think about development now and then, especially when there's actually some development there to think about in one's life. It can seem like a pointless exercise in the absence of a "whoa, something *changed*" experience or two. In that case, it's good sense not to waste time reading threads like this one, and instead get some development going.

Cheers,
Florian

I'm happy to not be the first one to mention Integral on this thread! Thanks, Florian!

I like the way that the Integralists use to describe the different lines of development as answering different questions. Since it always seems like there's some inter-dependence between the different lines (or intelligences), it's hard to say what each one exactly is and isn't. These questions give one enough of an intuitive understanding to have a conversation. For example: Cognitive - What am I aware of? Interpersonal - How should we interact? Self-Identity - Who am I? Moral - What should I do? etc. The spiritual line tends to be the one that asks the really big questions like What is this? (I like how this question is both tiny and huge)

refs: www.sunypress.edu/pdf/19445091.05.04.02.pdf
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences
Also, I like Cindy Wigglesworth's work on spiritual Intelligence: sarah.newcastleweb.net/wordpress/wp-cont...ntelligence-2011.pdf

""Say more, nadav. I may have missed that." -Chris

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Hmm, I was thinking more of the development of social dynamics/relationship between our "spiritual, psychological doer who lives and learns" and other human beings... family, friends, colleagues, strangers, lovers.

I bring this up because I have seen changes in this dimension of my life in tandem with spiritual development. I am somewhat nicer, much more open emotionally, less mean spirited, etc than before beginning spiritual practice. Of course, I'm young so this might have as much to do with life experience.

But, having typed all that out, I'm pretty sure it falls under psychology.

"I was actually having a bit of fun with it, but not making fun of it, just to see how far it went. I'm particularly pleased with the time dimension of the imagery." -- Florian

I know, and I was sort of riffing on what you said in the same vein

And I agree about the Integral crowd. There's something about the faux precision of that stuff that is off-putting to me, too, Florian.

"Exactly...So why the thread?"

Oh no, the topic police found me out!

"Hmm, I was thinking more of the development of social dynamics/relationship between our "spiritual, psychological doer who lives and learns" and other human beings... family, friends, colleagues, strangers, lovers." - Nadav

Sorry, but I'm still with Naday on this point. To separate the individual to the exclusion of the social context in which she/he develops strikes me as too limiting in scope to be of practicable relevance.

Yes, Alvaro, and as nadav has said, that seems to fall under psychology. I'm happy with that. How about you?

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"Exactly...So why the thread?"

Oh no, the topic police found me out!



"

Oops...Sorry, I forgot that's your job here!

B.

I prefer to think of it as a calling. B.Rice, mainly because it comes without compensation of any kind.

"Yes, Alvaro, and as nadav has said, that seems to fall under psychology. I'm happy with that. How about you?" - Cmarti

I guess it depends on how you choose to apply psychology to human development, but I feel like I've made my point so I'll leave well enough alone... for now.

Well, that's okay, but I'd really like to hear more from you. My intent here is to collaborate on this, so I'd prefer you differentiate away, please.

I am curious where relationships fall into this? Is that considered psychological? It seems to be as important to me as any of these categories.

Never mind. Nadav asked upstream. Teach me to respond without reading the whole thread. Apologies.

"In my humble opinion all four matter, but especially the intersection of spirituality and psychology. I'd like to see more balance being fostered. So...

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So what does the fostering of psychological development entail? What are some typical examples of its neglect?

"So what does the fostering of psychological development entail? What are some typical examples of its neglect?" - someguy77

Regarding neglect: The whole mass of suffering that comes under the heading of "spiritual bypassing" would be a typical example recognizable to the crowd assembled here in this forum.

Mild forms would be procrastinating relationship problems until after the big spiritual quest is over. More serious would be the denial of relationship problems after the big spiritual quest has been won. Another level of escalation would be the clergy/roshis/gurus caught with their pants down exploiting students and cheating on their spouses and betraying the trust of their congregations because of, um, All is Not Two so what's the big deal.

Replace relationship problems with power problems - you know those manipulative tendencies we all have, which can fester and erupt into their full glory when procrastinated or fully denied or rationalized away using some transcendent perspective.

Neglecting to look after old injuries can lead to psychological problems such as lack of empathy (because if one's own pain is put away so it won't be felt, other peoples' pain won't be felt either). Injured pride can lead to denial scenarios and so on.

Burn-out... many people start to meditate as some sort of self-medication against burnout and other forms of depression. Neglect that, and it can turn ugly.

Just a few things that come to mind. The human psyche has a lot of organs that can malfunction, so to speak.

Is Jackson around? He has actual training in this stuff, and I'd be very interested in his answer to your question.

Cheers,
Florian

Well said, Florian!

Jackson, yes, good idea - I'll try to invite him here if I can but he's very busy these days. Ron Crouch is an actual Ph.D./practicing psychologist so I'll invite him in, too.

To those of you who have expressed interest in the social aspects of human development -- I think we should include that. I think the four dimensions I listed in #1 should be applied to how human beings relate to each other as much as they apply to anything else. The dimensions are a way to think about all the various way we develop over time, so they can and should be as inclusive of the human experience as we need them to be.

Does that help, or is that still inadequate?

""So what does the fostering of psychological development entail? What are some typical examples of its neglect?" - someguy77



Just a few things that come to mind. The human psyche has a lot of organs that can malfunction, so to speak.

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How about the belief that your realization means you're infallible? That because you've got some attainments, now you are in a unique position to discern and speak the truth? And that your power to do this entitles you to say whatever you believe is the truth to anyone, and if they are hurt as a result that's their problem? I have been bulldozed by people who are highly sophisticated and who appear to have a lot of wisdom about many things, who then turn around and dump their delusions on others, compounded by a lethal dose of grandiosity.

If I am to be honest I have to admit that I have done that. It's a terrible misuse of whatever it is we're doing here. It's hurtful and it's wrong.

The thing I find interesting in this type of discussion is the ways in which progress on the spiritual/contemplative/meditative dimension interacts or fails to interact with the other dimensions. For example, I remember Kenneth saying that 4th path removed his life long depression. I'd love to hear from people with all levels of experience if spiritual progress helped untangle psychological knots, how it changed relationships with others, with one's own physical body, etc. and the ways in which spiritual progress failed to make much of a difference on some aspects of life.

PS. Chris, if this is not the right thread for that discussion, please let me know and I'll fork a new one.