Jhana and Insight: What is Kenneth Saying Here?

Hi everyone,

In this essay Kenneth talks about the relationship between jhana and nana: kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Jhana+and+Ñana

Do I understand it correctly that if one cultivates the jhanas (as in the dynamic variety) one can simultaneously traverse the progress of insight to path and fruition?

In my own practice I have taken mindfulness of the body and the feelings (the feelings generated by the jhanas) as my practice. This is based off of a lot of body-scanning over the last year and a half. I can sit, and within a few seconds start the progress through the jhanas up to 3rd. At that point I either stay with it, or if I feel I'm losing it (which can often happen if it's not so strong and the dark night sensations get really unpleasant) can do some careful body scanning to maintain it, or at least do *something* worthwhile with the concentration I've built up.

I guess I want to figure out if continuing to cultivate the jhanas in this way has the potential to lead to stream entry?

Many thanks,

Hello Ivor!

Welcome to KFD. You've found the right place to ask your questions! There are more experienced folks here who may have clearer advice, but here's my understanding for what it's worth. If you are experiencing the dukkha nyanas ( dark night ) stages of insight, then this implies you have already attained the A&P ( arising and passing ) stage of insight.

If this is indeed the case, there are a few key factors that you may want to focus on in order to progress quickly.

1) When it comes to the dark night stages; gentle and continuous attentiveness, acceptance, and acknowledgement of whatever sensations arise. The more one avoids the unpleasant-ness of the dukkha nanas ( aversion ) the more one suffers, in my experience. Acceptance is key.

2) It is my understanding that post A&P it is beneficial and necessary to continue pure samatha / concentration practice. I did plenty of kasina and breath concentration myself. But in order to attain stream entry, one must apply vipassana to whatever arises. This can be done by switching to vipassana once jhana is accessed, or by pure vipassana noting practice ( which develops concentration as well ).

As far as I can tell, the way the jhanas and the vipassana nanas are typically compared / related / mapped here at kfd, is that the strata / layer / levels of mind at which certain insight stages occur, also correspond to the same layers or depth of mind one accesses to attain jhana.

There are excellent vipassana noting instructions here on the site, if you're shooting for stream entry, then you may find that you have to find the proper balance of concentration and vipassana in your practice. It is also generally suggested you begin a practice thread, that way other members here can give you more accurate advice. May you awaken!

metta!

Justin

"Do I understand it correctly that if one cultivates the jhanas (as in the dynamic variety) one can simultaneously traverse the progress of insight to path and fruition?

[...]

I guess I want to figure out if continuing to cultivate the jhanas in this way has the potential to lead to stream entry?
"

I understand the essay to be saying two things: 1) concentration is important, but 2) there really isn't as much of a distinction between jhanas and nanas --- both the jhanas and the insight knowledges are related types of "states" that we can know.

Of course most practices will work for someone, so it's hard to answer your last question. Usually jhanas can't really be cultivated by themselves. Their nature is to show up while doing other basic practices. They are almost better thought of as by products. So the fact that they are showing up during body scanning makes sense. It similar to how they show up when watching the breath. Or how they show up while doing noting practice.

The important thing is to clearly see the sensations of the present moment and not drift off into a trance-like state. Every practice has it's positive and negative points. Body scanning keeps you active, which is a good thing, but it can also become somewhat trance-like, just dreamily sweeping awareness over the body. Investigating the jhana sensations (which are really just more sensations in the present moment) keeps you interested because the sensations are pleasurable and sometimes become stronger with attention, but the downside is it can be harder to see that there is still some ill will in those states and we can get a little stuck.

It's really good to play around with exploring different approaches. It's what being a yogi is all about. And there isn't just one simple thing that will take you all the way down the path, fine tuning is always needed.

Hope that helps!

"
There are excellent vipassana noting instructions here on the site, if you're shooting for stream entry, then you may find that you have to find the proper balance of concentration and vipassana in your practice. It is also generally suggested you begin a practice thread, that way other members here can give you more accurate advice. May you awaken!

metta!
"

+1!

Thanks Malt, Betawave.

I should clarify that body sweeping is mostly a last resort at present, or something that I do once or twice in each jhana to really survey the jhanas effect on the body. I am essentially practicing according to the instructions in the Kayagatasati sutta: www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.119.than.html but with emphasis on seeing the impermanence of the sensations that make up the jhana, the feelings, and mind states.

My experience thus far has been as you have described. That I am essentially climbing the nanas but with the added benefit of increased concentration on pleasant sensations which makes the dark night often much easier to deal with.

Re noting: I am a little way down the path with my current practice and am not inclined to note. I don't find verbalisation very agreeable, though I'm not ruling it out at some time in the future..

Im off on retreat in a week so will get some good time to practice and hopefully make it up into equanimity (i have been there many times over the last year without attaining stream entry) and getting path.

we shall see!

If you are reaching equanimity, Ivor, then it is merely a matter of hanging out in equanimity and gently applying vipassana to that territory.

An emphasis or inclination towards seeing clearly the cessation of sensations; the 3 characteristics ... is probably ideal. Maybe you will find this helpful:

thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2010/11/...n-goenka-10-day.html

"I guess I want to figure out if continuing to cultivate the jhanas in this way has the potential to lead to stream entry?
"

Hey dude, welcome to the board.

My hunch is that if you can get up to Equanimity/4th vipassana jhana, you can get stream entry. But you may have to take a different tack once you get up to Equanimity. I'd try one of the following two options:

(1) Note your ass off. You say you don't feel inclined to note, but there's a reason a lot of people do it: it gets them stream-entry. So at least consider it.

(2) Once you get up to 4th jhana, take advantage of the panoramic perspective, and from here, turn the focus of attention GENTLY back upon the sensations composing "self". These will probably be sensations around or in the eyes, in the head, in the face, in the throat, in the chest. Turn the attention out toward a sensation in the foot or a sound in the room, and watch how the mind continues to toss these "self" sensations in, giving the subtle impression that there's a center point to the experience. Don't try to DO anything about this. Just watch it in real-time. In my experience, this practice, when done in High Equanimity, is like the FATALITY move from Mortal Kombat. I would be surprised if you didn't get a fruition doing that.

Let us know what happens. I would be interested to read the account of a person getting stream-entry without noting and doing it the way you're doing it.

Hi apperception, thanks for that.

I have tried what you suggest re the sense of self but not in really high equanimity. Probably low-mid and it's a funny thing to do. Those sensations kind of squirm out of the way and move around. A few times I find my sense of self has manifested in my chin! as there is nowhere else for it to go hehe!

Are there any specific instructions that might relate to noting in high EQ? I certainly expect to get there on this retreat, so it might be useful to be familiar with the technique in case I want to try it?

Having said that I really want to do with without noting. I think it would be pretty interesting as well!

"If you are reaching equanimity, Ivor, then it is merely a matter of hanging out in equanimity and gently applying vipassana to that territory.

An emphasis or inclination towards seeing clearly the cessation of sensations; the 3 characteristics ... is probably ideal. Maybe you will find this helpful:

thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com/2010/11/...n-goenka-10-day.html "

3C's are definitely good things to pay attention to! I found last time I was in low/mid equanimity that I was really seeing impermanence and not self quite clearly for a short time.

"Having said that I really want to do with without noting."

Just one other equanimity/stream entry tip: make sure you include the sensations of practicing. It's a very subtle place to hide. So "really wanting" anything in particular during practice is another good place to look for sensations.

This all said, don't worry too much. Sounds like you're doing fine.

Ivor, if you can make it all the way up to high EQ, you don't need to note. At that point, working with the sensations composing self should be enough to get a fruition. Make sure you do like betawave said and include those sensations of practicing (really any sense of agency whatsoever). Like the doctor from The Big Lebowski you must be "a good man, and thorough."

But you really need to make sure you're up in the highest EQ you can get. That's why I like noting. It's harder to fool yourself if you're noting. That being said, you need to go with what works for you. However you manage to do it, let us know, because it's useful information to have! This is all a giant experiment here, so we need the data.

keep looking. keep looking. keep looking.

Hi everyone.

Well I did not get SE on my course, but I did get to thoroughly explore equanimity nana this time. This is always as my practice has been, on a course or at home I kind of "peep" at the next major level occasionally then on the following course get to hang out in that level for some time till it becomes much easier for me to reach it in single sits at home.

We have had some problems since I got back though and I have been doing some intensive metta practice to help cope with that so it's a bit hard to say where I am at now (and not so important either!).

I do have an opportunity to explore noting a little more though, and will post something separately about that shortly...