Rob_Mtl's practice thread II

"Cartoon-guy did it!! "


I swear it was an accident!

"Generally, I feel like when we are "embedded", there is a ceaseless string of visual / auditory frames that unfold in our minds' eye and ear that stands in for actual experience, and this is the process of delusion / dependent origination at work."

"It is annoying, but I think that if you notice it, you're having a pretty fundamental insight."

-- Rob, seconded by Mark


Gentlemen, that's the whole enchilada as far as advancing through the Theravada paths is concerned. This is the figure/ground reversal necessary to eventual awakening. It's the core insight allowing one to see through/penetrate all objects. The process, once you have access to this insight, is to keep applying it as often and as thoroughly as possible.

This has been the theme in my practice for a few days now- as I investigate those sensations in the face that seem to correlate to a mental cartoon of "me", I am starting to catch that process more and more often off-cushion. Also, I am starting to see that all experiences, even thoughts, have that quality (an after-image that correlates to a physical tensing). Even when "noting". I am actually only noting the after-image.

Everything perceived has a "me" smell. I periodically glimpse what perceiving without the "me" smell is like, and I don't really have a context to describe it, but it is accompanied by a little wave of fluttery yet calm coolness (if that makes sense). Must watch out to not own the pleasant aftereffect as "mine", either, though...!

Becoming aware of the "me" smell in everything is not just a product of persistent noting, but also a kind of recognition that I don't need to "go out and meet" every experience as I note it. Kind of an effort to not make an effort (that I didn't even know I was making until now!). This is easier to do from the "witness" viewpoint.

"Much of the past year, I have also been using sound as an object in a 3rd gear, "Ships in the Harbour" mode, but I might try some of your techniques to add the depth of some 1st-gear discipline to it.

I have really kind of fallen in love with the bottomless well of urban ambient sound as a meditation environment- it often makes me wonder why retreat centres have to waste so much money building remote rural locations!

"

Big +1 on this. The qualities, textures, timbre, volume, and pretty much all characteristics of sounds all seem to hold a special place for me in meditation. Early on, I first experienced vibrations as moment-by-moment sounds while meditating in my car at lunch near a freeway, near restaurants and a fairly busy intersection. Later, I could tell that I was starting to pass through the nyanas by how I experienced the timbre of cars approaching and then passing my meditation spot near the freeway.

Later, in the days immediately after stream entry, I found I could easily induce a fruition by carefully listening to sounds. I'd let awareness rest on a sound until the sound ended and completely disappeared from awareness. I'd then let awareness choicelessly come to rest on another sound. Less than a minute of this would reliably induce a fruition. Didn't happen with thoughts, or sensation, or feelings, or visual objects. Only sounds.

Last night: 1h sit.

Started with 15 minutes of first-gear noting out loud. Then switched to the witness, though this time I didn't try "riding the arc". I found that I was well-set-up to note "background" activity, to take in a larger panorama of mental activity. As I said above, I realize that when I note, I am actually just noting the after-images of an already-craved-and-grasped experience. Shifting my perspective to the "witness" makes it possible to open myself up to a larger field, and note stuff that I am probably usually quite embedded in- physical sensations in remote parts of the body, rote "background" mental chatter and moods, etc. I guess strictly-speaking, this isn't the "Witness", but I used that shift in the focus of my mind's eye to launch this.

I experienced a string of six or seven sudden brightenings behind the eyelids over the course of the hour, but not really a sense that I was having "bliss-waves" or anything- the sitting was actually unusually steady and calm.

My mottos for practice these days are "remember to breathe", "watch the background", and "watch for the 'me' smell in every perception".

Over the weekend, 2 x 1-hour sits. Both times, I sat with the Hamilton Project's podcast on the jhanic arc jhanas 1 to 13. I thought it was interesting that, while I did not necessarily experience things exactly as the HP guys described, I experienced some phenomena that unfolded the same way in both sits, lining up with the same places in the narration on the podcast both days. Don't know if that signifies anything, and I am still never sure if anything from jhana 8 upward is really "a thing". But this 'guided-tour' approach is an interesting experiment.

Tonight: 1 hr sit. 15 minutes of out-loud noting, which was very energizing, and I felt distinctly the "shifts" à la jhanic arc that made noting increasingly difficult, but tried (more or less successfully) to keep my resolution to note out loud for the full 15 minutes. After that, I switched to silent noting, trying to stay tuned into the sensations that are usually in my background. I had some kind of pop, but not a "fruition" type as I usually understand it, because it was more like a surge of Fear that eased off but remained a kind of vague tension, along with a buzzing feeling over the whole upper hemisphere of my head.

The remaining half-hour spent kind of tense, but an alert, non-spacey tense. I was more intellectually analyzing the tension than actually noting it- tried repeatedly to return to out-loud noting, to not let my watchfulness dissipate into vagueness and analytical chatter.

1 hr sit last night. It's hard to describe phenomenologically (especially doing so the next morning), but there were two phases, that I suspect correspond roughly to two rides up and down the arc- about halfway through, I felt a distinct "return to normal" that was very much like I had ended a cycle, so I started another. On the second go-round, I took my best guess as to when I was in 8th-jhana-or-above (only jhana 1-6 characteristics are really, truly clear to me, but I don't think I stop there). From there, I tried playing around with the "flashlight inside my head" (having read various NS info linked from Aquanin's thread). While this does open up *something*- some kind of sinking-yet-tensing that makes me want to roll my eyes back in my head- I think I am still far from any "event horizon". I am not sure if I'm doing anything other than making myself tense and giving myself headaches like Aquanin described, but I don't feel that I am deliberately tensing or grasping. It's a strange vast territory up there, with many colours and experiences and a lot of quick shifting.

Off-cushion, I have felt for several days a distinct sense of an Equanimity baseline- the clearest in some while (which is nice, because last week I was having the clearest DN I have had in a while!).

Hah, Opposite day. I am having a pretty clear DN right now. Fun Times.

Our experiences with Jhanas seem to line up very well. I have had a few times of seeing 7th and 8th clearly but it has been a while since I truly noticed them, although I am pretty sure I am getting in that arena in my sits.

As far as the NS stuff. I am only experimenting now because I had what seems to be a clear automatic pointing in that direction in that one sit. Suddenly my mind went to a spot and the sinking began. Once Antero posted his link, it seemed to line up very well. However, when I tried rooting around for it yesterday I gave myself a headache. I assume I need to get super concentrated and not think about it, then sort of just resolve to go there and see what happens. This all came out of nowhere. Still not even sure it was the start of NS stuff. If it is, I had no idea I was anywhere near that territory yet. Especially right now when DNing, feels like things will never progress.

Opposite or not, I think my next step is the same as the one you documented on your thread today- declare the experiment finished and get back to the basics!

"Generally, I feel like when we are "embedded", there is a ceaseless string of visual / auditory frames that unfold in our minds' eye and ear that stands in for actual experience, and this is the process of delusion / dependent origination at work.

It takes a lot of care to identify that this is happening, but once I do, I realize that there is always some physical tension "squeezing" out those images and all that mental talk.




"

Hi Rob, by auditory frames do you mean the mental talk? Thanks, Mark

An interesting tip about the physical tension. I get the impression that I'm bothered more than average by the intrusiveness of the cartoon face image. I've also thought for years that I have more face tension (a lot!) than usual. Once a zen teacher suggested out of the blue that I pay attention to that. I've investigated it at times, but never made the connection between the 2.. Checking that out lately.

Yeah, I meant the mental talk- the constant running commentary (using some facsimile of my own voice) that accompanies all experience. (When I used the word "frames", I meant like frames of a movie- re-reading that post now, I realize the metaphor doesn't really work when I bring in sound as well as visuals!).

I feel exactly the same way- when I reflect on this "cartoon image", I realize that I suddenly notice the tension in my face muscles. I don't know if it's "more than average" - my take on it these days is that that cartoon-image occupies all of our minds' eye most of the time, but we don't see it because we automatically conflate it with our actual visual experience.

Our real sense-experience may or may not tell us the same thing as the cartoon, but, guaranteed, we prefer to believe the cartoon every time

I also feel these days that it's important that I don't make an enemy of the cartoon-image, though. I try to notice it while also noticing the wish to suppress it that arises at the same moment as I notice the image. That censoring urge is also a slippery and self-y thing!

Two sits last night, 1h then 40m.

The first sit, I did 15 m out-loud noting, trying hard to press on with the intention to note while my mind wanted to lapse into silence.

This desire to go quiet is (I think) not just a lazy desire to let my mind wander, but also a desire to become absorbed in a concentration state. I'm trying to stick to my resolve to do 15 minutes, come hell or high water. For the rest of the session, I stayed with noting silently rather than going toward the Witness, as I had been doing lately.

Earlier, I had read an old post of Owen Becker's, reminding everyone that the technique works when you stick to it- which left me feeling a bit like I'd been chasing after party-tricks a bit lately! I think a big part of me wants validation for my practice in every session - I have to KNOW that this is helping me and SOMETHING COOL has to happen so that I believe it. For a few minutes yesterday, the absurdity of that was clear to me

[cont'd]

[cont'd]

Second sit: 40 mins of Witness, starting with a couple of deliberate rides up and down the arc. I felt that it went very quickly, at least those parts (jhana 1 to 6) that I am confident that I recognize. The rest of the session I tried to note, from within the Witness headspace, the aspect of "me" seizing experiences as they come along, and relflecting that seeing / hearing happens without anyone making an effort to see or hear.

After the session, I had a sense that I could lightly lay a mental finger on a spot in my head, just behind where my throat and nasal passages meet, that would plug up my mental chatter, songs in my head, etc. That feeling persists a bit today, though it also gives me a bit of a headache, and I figure that's another party-trick and I shouldn't mess with it too much

A small surge of fear woke me up last night, very briefly- a sense of slipperyness of reality. Today I continue to feel quite chill overall, though many different mind-states, even rather tense ones, flit by. It's fun.

Continuing with my recent pattern: 15 minutes of out-loud noting (and struggling with the urge to stop and bliss out), then 45 minutes continuing the noting, with an emphasis on when I am aware of "me" seizing the experience.

This is easiest to see through that "cartoon-image" of me that correlates with tensions, especially in my face.

The seizing of experiences goes on everywhere in my mind and body, but there isn't as clear a marker in my other sense-fields as the cartoon-image is in my "visual" mind.

I've lost the sense of easy access to the Witness that I felt a week ago. I don't know if I have actually "lost" anything, or if a novel point-of-view has simply become more normal. Now I don't even know if that was the "Witness" the way it is meant around here. But looking back at the sensations that make up "I am" is still interesting.

I feel like there's been a bit of a baseline shift. I feel exactly as I did before, except that everything arises in a wider frame, so that I feel less reactive and more resilient. I had the same feeling of a sudden change in "frame" after SE, but this feels more "total" because I don't require myself to feel better. It isn't a "balanced" feeling. I don't have to feel "good", or stable. (Which is not to say that I don't LIKE it this way )

[cont'd]

[cont'd]

There was a few seconds in my sitting, about a week ago, when I knew that every sensation that arose was *exactly* the same as every other. While I don't feel as dramatic a sense of clarity in day-to-day life (or even in most sittings) as I did at that moment, I've retained some kind of recognition that a "good" state is of exactly the same character and composition as a "bad" state.

I owe thanks to the contributors of that "Third Path" thread a couple of weeks ago. That discussion helped push me back into a new phase of practice, or at least, it coincided with and fed some kind of sub-cycle for me that seems to have come full circle. Thanks for the push, guys!

Bravo! Sounds like good stuff. I am glad you brought this up, it reminded me. I am having a kind of difficult time accessing the witness as well, i can point to the spot but my mind wants to look elsewhere.

Yes, I guess that perspective fades in and then out again. My mind seems to have other business to attend to now, so it doesn't seem like a huge loss

(edit for typos)

Tonight: again 15 mins out-loud noting, and 45 mins other stuff.

When I switch modes to silent noting, I am trying to find ways to dig out the "me smell" in my experience. Noting has a drawback: an experience that is gross enough to be noted is also gross enough that it is already craved and seized.

Building on my "cartoon image" insight about face muscles correlating to an image of myself in my mind's eye, I am asking myself, How do I dig back before the seizing?

Tonight I stumbled upon a technique to use ambient sound. I think that the sound equivalent of my "cartoon image" is a sense that a certain sound is a continuous stream or a pulse.

If I open my ears to ambient noise, the noise resolves into infinite layers of either streams of a certain tone or timbre, or else pulses of a more white-noisey quality. I think the way the mind craves and seizes these sounds is to convert the discontinuous blips and clicks into various overlaid continuities like these.

So I opened up to just one of the perceived pulsing white-noises and quickly noticed that within it was a certain "tink" or "plink" that would come up over and over, but NOT rhythmically or continuously, and so, just listening for repetitions of that "plink" broke up the continuity of the stream of sound and left my mind flailing for something to grasp on to- similar to a "Ships in the Harbour" type of listening.

(cont`d)

(cont`d)

Another observation from the past few days: whenever I have a momentary insight like the "sound" one I just described, the mind gets very very excited as it enjoys a blissful "placelessness" for a moment. But it really really wants to seize that blissful feeling, and forget about the insight that brought it there.

The mind wants to jump away from insight into the 3 characteristics moment-after-moment. I think we are always doing this. The 3 characteristics are so bloody obvious, that everything we do is just another flinch away from it. This is just as true while meditating as while operating a jackhammer or eating ice cream. Flinch, flinch, flinch.

Stillness is the ability to stand in front of the 3 characteristics manifesting, and not flinch away.

This means that stillness is NOT silence, peace, pleasantness, joy, lack of tension, or lack of anxiety. Nor is it being stoic, or calm, or chill. It isn`t any of the nice things I previously thought it was. Which isn`t to say that I know much about stillness yet. But I do have a strong sense that I have been getting it wrong.

This is all kinda stream-of-consciousness, so thanks for sticking around if you`ve read this far

"
Stillness is the ability to stand in front of the 3 characteristics manifesting, and not flinch away.

"

Maybe stillness is the recognition that the 3 characteristics pale in comparison to the reality that is ever present outside of our own "personal" thoughts and feelings. Maybe silence is the nature of reality and it is only identification that compels us to step out. Maybe not.. Thanks!

Continuing with a pattern of hour-long sittings divided into 15 minutes of noting out loud and 45 minutes investigating. After reading a couple of recent threads, I am trying to note mind-states more precisely. I had a bit of an insight that a big part of me would rather do *anything* than note mind-states

In tonight's sitting, I also realized that (1) I have mistaken a lot of unpleasant physical sensations with related but different mind-states - the mind state might actually be pleasant, even if an associated physical tension is judged as unpleasant, and (2) I experience a greater volume of "pleasant" mind-states than I actually believe I do- I am just very biased toward unpleasant ones. I realize that I do actually frequently experience "peace" "equanimity" "silence" "calm"... I just refuse to really believe that they're there and wait for the next nasty one to show up. Weird, huh?

Also incorporating more metta into my practice. Someone on these boards mentioned something along the lines of being like a child while doing metta, so I tried actually curling up on the floor for a few minutes. Perhaps I am misinterpreting what they were suggesting, but it works It's a good alternative to adopting a formal sitting stance... which can sometimes feel stiff and arrogant.

Something Antero wrote also struck a chord - "be as vulnerable as possible". That's my daily-life practice at the moment.

Oh, hey, now I remember- it was actually your thread I was reading, WF566613! Thanks for the very inspriring and helpful account.

" I had a bit of an insight that a big part of me would rather do *anything* than note mind-states
- Rob"

That is a major insight, Rob! Also sounds very familiar to me.

Why is noting mind states is inherently unpleasant? Something smells fishy here

Hey Rob- No problem. Glad it was useful.