The No-Big-Wow Club (continuation of Turtle Log conversation)

I'm curious about crunching our data to see if there is such a thing as a no-big-wow club. Here's the conversation that led to this idea...

"With all of these nanas, the descriptions can seem kind of overstated, so for the past couple of years I've been slowly recognizing that they've been happening, but not what I expected because I thought they'd be a big wow." - kacchapa

"I think we need to start a no-big-wow club. There seems to be a few of us who barely notice nanas (let alone sub-nanas), barely notice any post-fruition bliss wave, barely notice post-path cycling." - betawave

"Raises hand. I am in the club. Especially after 2nd path." -Aquanin

"Me too. I've never really had this "bliss wave" they talk about." - Rob_Mtl

So what I'm curious to hear from others is...

1) Are your A&P(s) mind-blowing?
2) Was your first and second path followed by a significant bliss wave?
3) Were you aware of post path cycling on the cushion? Off the cushion?
4) Did you experience many post path review fruitions?

My data:

1) yes, the A&Ps were very spiritually rich, very visual, associated with lots of bliss.
2) no, both were little hiccups that left a "clean" feeling afterwards. A sense of being done for a while.
3) no. Post path sits "on the cushion" seems to be much more jhana-like and somewhat confusing. Definately deeper, but hard to map. Off the cushion, about the only landmark seems to be a little bliss-attack (an urge to close eyes, a visual flash of light, feeling of a rush, and mild or strong bliss) that lasts about a second or two. Seems to map to a review A&P.
4) No clear "interuptions" besides those that seem to map to path events.

One thing I'll note, I think I've done a lot of dark night purification before finally making progress (a couple decades). I wonder if that sorta bled the drama from me?

One thing is for certain: either this will stay the same, or become different.

Great topic:

My data:

1) Only really the first one, any subsequent A&P has been characterized by lights in the field of vision with eyes close, mild rising energy.
2) First path cessation was followed by a mere shudder. 2nd path was probably the most powerful one I have ever had, nothing like that since.
3) I could feel I was at A&P right away because of energy and lights but my review phases were pretty short. Off the cushion, I feel like I only notice when I am in Dissolution because I just so dragged out tired.
4) I did get the calm and then back at A&P type stuff, but nothing noticable. It wasnt until about last month where I could get fruitions repeatedly, but that has gone away again. I feel like looking back in retrospect I can tell where I was at certain point a lot better than when I am going through it. Except for this working towards third path phase. It feels like one loooooong cycle with mini cycles in between, even though its still hard to tell where I am. I make guesses but I try not to care anymore.

I know plenty of people who have really subtle experiences - just no big wow. Me, I had the drama llama thing. I think it might just be to do with personality, physiology, etc. So:
1) Yes, definitely
2) first, yes, drifting in astonished bliss for days; second, no idea, wasn't keeping good track of mapping
3) yes, yes, on a larger scale (rarely noticed cycling within sits, just paid attention to larger scale pattern across weeks/days)
4) some for sure but wasn't watching for them carefully.

My daily experience still includes a fairly strong energetic component, bliss, ecstasies, visions, etc, though on a much quieter scale than before. I think I'm just wired that way.

1) Are your A&P(s) mind-blowing?

My first path A&P felt more intellectual than physical in nature. My mind was moving very fast, and I felt like I had crystal-clear insight into impermanence, because I could easily perceive the sensations rising and dropping off. I never got the rush of energy until after stream-entry. Now an A&P feels like someone uncorking a bottle of champagne at the base of my spine.

2) Was your first and second path followed by a significant bliss wave?

No. I barely noticed my first- or second-path fruitions when they happened. In fact, I don't even think I cycled back to A&P. Kenneth and Beth figured out I had gotten stream-entry because of how subsequent sits went. But no, I was too keyed up both times to experience bliss.

3) Were you aware of post path cycling on the cushion? Off the cushion?

On the cushion, yeah. Mahasi Sayadaw says you should be able to climb from A&P to EQ in 5 acts of noting. I wasn't that fast, but I was close. Power as soon as I sat, big feeling of dropping off for dark night, and then fast expansion and ultimate dissolution of space. Off the cushion I tend not to notice. I never related to the talk of constant cycling off the cushion.

4) Did you experience many post path review fruitions?

Hardly any. I had my first fruition in awhile about a week ago while doing jhana practice. I could probably count on one hand how many post-path fruitions I've had.

I would put myself in the Moderate Wow camp.

"On the cushion, yeah. Mahasi Sayadaw says you should be able to climb from A&P to EQ in 5 acts of noting."

This is interesting, never heard that before. That seems to be what I experienced. Sit down, lock in, stay in a groove. Almost mudane state but noticebly clear and content. Time didn't matter. But not much sense of cycling.

"Me, I had the drama llama thing. "

...and now you are the Drama Lama?

It was suggested to me that I've been through A&P earlier on this very discussion board. If so I've probably had them before coming here.
But then:
1. No. It's nice and I occasionally have had the sensation of someone pointing a spotlight straight at my face. But nothing mind-blowing.

Regarding the rest of the questions I'll have to get back to you when/if I get there

I just got a bliss wave from the gratitude of being in this club. Thanks guys!

"...and now you are the Drama Lama? "

That's funny.

What's rather amusing now is that this stuff just doesn't really have much impact. It's like a body function, like yawning or burping - it just happens. Sometimes seems related to physical considerations, just like you tend to burp after eating or yawn when tired. I never thought I wouldn't care about it very much!! So it's a rather drama-less drama.

1) Are your A&P(s) mind-blowing?
No, but can be intensive.
Following 3:rd nana: Flashes in the eyes, rising energy, good mode.
Following fruition: Like the previous but sharper. Also my sight sometimes zooms in into hyper sharp and detailed view, looks like a grid (somewhat awesome, makes me "wow").
Sometimes feelings of pressure or squeezing of the body.

2) Was your first and second path followed by a significant bliss wave?
First path gave me a good bliss wave, yes.
Second path squeezed my body, almost scaringly. No bliss wave really, but some relief.

3) Were you aware of post path cycling on the cushion? Off the cushion?
Yes, both on and off cushion.

4) Did you experience many post path review fruitions?
Yes, every day for a few weeks.

1) Are your A&P(s) mind-blowing?
No, usually it's a rising brightening in the visual field, sometimes quite intense like floodlights at a heavy-metal concert. Not an emotional wave, though.

2) Was your first and second path followed by a significant bliss wave?
First: yes!!, a fantastic blissful sense that I could release every single thought and perception like a helium balloon, immense huge immense wonderful immense (temporary!) relief from any and all pain or stress I ever felt.
Second: I don't remember the experience itself- I mostly remember the fact that a particularly obvious fruition was followed by symptoms of Review in the following days, and falling into the Witness.

3) Were you aware of post path cycling on the cushion? Off the cushion?
Yes, I've never been great at picking out the individual stages, but the fact of being in Review was apparent both times.

4) Did you experience many post path review fruitions?
Not many, at least not obviously. For me, a fruition is kind of a sinking down into my head followed by a sudden return to presence and clarity that is not dramatic, just a "return to normal". Sometimes there's those rising lights of A&P, but not always. Sometimes, off the cushion, I have a sense that something just "reset" in my mind, and that what happened only a few seconds ago feels a bit like it's just a particularly clear long-term memory.

These questions really highlight how we struggle to apply the maps to our experience. My sense is that recognition plays a part in whether or not bliss arises after a fruition.

1) Are your A&P(s) mind-blowing?
I had 3 or 4 A&Ps before stream entry and each one was spectacular in some way. The first one was marked by extended bliss though, which the others lacked. The last was marked by a powerful fascination with phenomena which helped propel me through the progress of insight to stream entry. Post stream entry A&Ps have all been low key '“ marked by heightened interest and equanimity, but no bliss and no 'wow' factor. Sometimes it's like 'is this the A&P?', or 'oh, it's the A&P'.

2) Was your first and second path followed by a significant bliss wave?
First path fruitions were happening for weeks without me knowing what they were. After becoming Ron's student I experienced two really big fruitions on consecutive days '“ the second day confirmed it beyond a doubt, and only then was there relief, bliss, and gratitude. Second path fruition was very subtle but again there was a huge sense of relief and joy.

continued...

3) Were you aware of post path cycling on the cushion? Off the cushion?
Yes & yes, especially after first path. There was cycling after second path, but now it's pretty chaotic. I don't see a clear pattern these days, and I'm not really concerned about it either. Just seem more awake, with periods of really intense obscurity.

4) Did you experience many post path review fruitions?
After finally recognizing first path cessations there were a few more at best. There were quite a number of them after second path, but their occurrence wasn't predictable. They were all subtle, and the relief/bliss/gratitude which followed them was also subtle. One morning laying in bed I was able to incline toward them and there were numerous cessations with very rapid cycling. There have been a couple of soft fruitions since, with subtle relief and joy '“ possibly 2nd-3rd path sub-cycling.

"1) Are your A&P(s) mind-blowing?
2) Was your first and second path followed by a significant bliss wave?
3) Were you aware of post path cycling on the cushion? Off the cushion?
4) Did you experience many post path review fruitions?
"

1) Yes, pre 1st path A&P. The first one was massive, I would never have believed it was possible for a human being to experience that much joy. Pretty much *hard* 2nd jhana. Who knew? Years later, as I was getting back into meditation, I experienced a very special psilocybin infused rocket sled of joy. Since then, nada, which makes the whole no-big-wow thing something I've been having to come to terms with.
2) No. Not sure I actually noticed the actual path moment. Can't really say I've experienced a bliss wave after any fruitions, at most some kind of wave of substantially neutral sensation.
3) Not much awareness of cycling except a couple of times it became slightly obvious on very long sits. I kind of assume I am cycling because that's the map, but generally it's not that obvious, particularly after the first run thru.
4) Yes, but it took perhaps 2 months before I started to notice them.

I have found this topic useful.

"I have found this topic useful."

Ditto!

This is a GREAT thread.

1) Are your A&P(s) mind-blowing?
The first one was absolutely staggeringly, unequivocably mindblowing. Subsequent ones declined in mindblowing-ness. However, the off-cushion mindfulness, clarity, awareness, concentration effects for the second and third ones made me think I had gotten another path when I had not.

2) Was your first and second path followed by a significant bliss wave?
I did not recognize the stream entry fruition when it happened, but, in retrospect, it was much more obvious. There was no bliss wave after the fruition. I didn't really realize I'd gotten path until I started having review fruitions a few days later.

The second path fruition was obvious, like standing in the water near shore and getting hit by a big wave. It was followed by a "chill wave" that was very similar to bliss waves, but seemed colder, pricklier, and only mildly blissful. It resonated like I was a huge bell that had just been rung once.

The third path fruition was very minor, much smaller than previous review fruition. However, it became obvious I was in review a few days later. I still wonder if it was really third path.

[cont...]

[...cont]

3) Were you aware of post path cycling on the cushion? Off the cushion?
I got review phase A (Start in A&P, proceed to Equanimity, then back to A&P with a fruition and bliss wave). This was obvious and lasted for several months in one case.

Review phase B (Up and down through the nyanas) never really was obvious. I think I had some of that post-stream entry, but didn't really notice it after second and third.

Post path (daily) cycling is not usually obvious, and I can attribute anything I do notice to emotional issues, working out, health issues, tiredness, mood, etc...

4) Did you experience many post path review fruitions?
Many large, blissful, obvious, serial, wow-inducing fruitions. They would wake me up at night for hours sometimes. Sometimes, I'd get them every few seconds. It would eventually get tiring and draining, and the bliss was sometimes so strong that I almost would get a little queasy. Getting up and walking around would stop them for a while, but they'd restart after I got back in bed.

The phrase "drama lama" made me laugh out loud

P

HI folks,

Interesting thread. With very few exceptions, I think I'm in the no-big-wow category.

1. As far as I can recall, only my very first A&P fell into the mind-blowing category. I was about 9 though, so I often wonder if that set an atypical baseline for all that came after...?
2. My first big cessation was very big, and did leave me in a powerful, blissy state of mind for about 3 days. I often feel better after sitting, but bliss would be a stretch. Had a strangely calm and happy (serene?) mind-set after my first non-dual experience back in Feb.
3. If I cycle, I'm not aware of any specific signposts, beyond what could be chalked up to random emotional states.
4. I have had a variety of blanks occur, on and off the cushion, but they don't seem to be the big whoop that the pop lit describes.

In discovering the formal maps long after some of my "big" experiences, I wasn't certain of my progress or location. It was a while before I learned that for some yogi's, there aren't as many fireworks.

I've often joked that I'm more of a sombre twilight yogi
P

Excellent thread topic! And yes, please count me in as a member of the No-Big-Wow-Club. I love it and want a T-shirt.

My data is a bit skewed because it seems it took me 6 months to realise I'd hit First Path.

1) Are your A&P(s) mind-blowing?
I have no memory of a big A&P of the kind that Kenneth and Daniel Ingram describe. I suspect - but am by no means sure - that I crossed it late one night in 2003 when I suddenly found myself filled with a warm joy and sense of possibility as I read a book about Christianity. I became a Christian on the spot, was a zealous bible-thumper for three months, and then the Dark Night set in, leading to years of spiritual meandering and soul-searching. What I call A&P these days is a tingle up the spine, sometimes some purple in the mind's eye and a sense of joy. Nice, but not mind-blowing.

2) Was your first and second path followed by a significant bliss wave?
No. I have no idea what happened immediately after First Path except that I was not very interested in practising. This was last October. If there was a bliss wave it came about three months later, when I was into my current run of practising two hours a day. Then I noticed a real sense of tenderness, joy and sweetness to my experience.

3) Were you aware of post path cycling on the cushion? Off the cushion?
No, I thought I was in Equanimity. Everything felt nice and easeful.

4) Did you experience many post path review fruitions?
Not immediately. I had one fruition in October, and barely noticed it. Then in April I went on a hardcore two week retreat and was able to will fruitions. By the end of the retreat I could do about 8 in an hour's sit. They haven't happened since then (although I haven't tried).

In addition to the Big-Wow claims, there are some other problems inherent to this topic.

1. If I say that "No, my A&Ps aren't that intense" what's to say I'm even talking about A&Ps? Isn't it all too easy to use the same term and yet be describing completely different experiences? For instance, the other day, in the middle of my sit, I came across a pleasant flow of energy through the spine that usually I would call an A&P. Except that I am supposed to have already passed Stream Entry, and so A&Ps should happen right at the start of the sit, not before. This means that either (a) I am not Stream Enterer, or (b) what I have been calling A&Ps aren't, in fact, A&Ps.

2. People tend to misremember events in their lives, particularly events of life-changing import. What's to say that I did feel that warm glow when reading about Jesus in 2003? It was a major event in my life, so perhaps I'm burdening it with all sorts of mystical experience that wasn't really there.

3. Confirmation bias.

The sooner Judson Brewer gets his Progress of Insight brain test up and running the better, IMHO.

A few final questions for fellow members of the No-Big-Wow Club: Without the big wows, how do you feel about making progress? I mean, do you get a sense of satisfaction from your teacher telling you that you've earned that Path, that new stripe? Or do you notice a tangible feeling of suffering less? I don't think this is an easy question to answer. And yet I keep practicing, and can't imagine stopping.