Expanded vs Limited Vocabularies

Hi everyone.

I have an opportunity to explore the noting practice for 9 days as a home retreat in a couple of weeks. My history is as a goenka student for the past 18mts with 5 x 10day retreats under my belt and my current cutting edge is high equanimity or thereabouts.

Putting aside the question of "do i carry on with scanning or try noting" as Im pretty decided on trying noting (lest I always have this nagging doubt about my current practice!) I'd like to get your opinions on the style of noting I could try.

Options are:

* Mahasi / MCTB / KFD style
* Shinzen Young "5 ways"

Shinzen's system has the benefit of being really well documented and simple to do due to it's limited vocabularies. For all sensations you note "touch", for all feelings "feel", for all mental talk "talk" for example. It has the disadvantage of being less well supported on this and Dh0 forums, in MCTB and Kenneths writings. Also, I do not know if there may be any disadvantages relating to the limited vocabulary itself.

Mahasi is better supported, and there is more chance I could do a retreat with a competent teacher some time down the road. I live in the UK and am unlikely to be able to travel to USA to work with Shinzen. Also, the flexibility of vocal may make it easier to work with given my very different training so far in the goenka tradition.

What do you think?

I've trained with both systems and the good news is that they both work, but I think your hunch is right; it's best to choose just one and do it well. In my experience Ways 1 and 2 are more gentle. Insight seems to arise the way a flower grows. It's a process of patient yet steady emerging. The 1st Gear, on the other hand, gets right to the heart of the matter. I've described the practice as carving a stone angel with a spoon. It's intense, it's jarring, it's vigorous, but it's also kind of miraculous in that you quickly learn that this spoon (noting in the 1st Gear) is ideally suited to carving stone angels.

Concern about support is very valid. You need proper guidance and regular feedback. I've seen this too many times; people, who insist on working without teacher, spending years learning things that they could have figured out in a few weeks with competent instruction.

If you're really going to go for it, you should work with people who know the terrain ahead of you. Shinzen has facilitators in many countries. There may be one near you. He's also never hesitated to answer my questions via email. If your going to use the 5 Ways, PM me and I'll email it to you. The teacher I have the most contact with is Beth Resnick-Folk. You can find her contact info (among others) in the start here menu.

Good luck!

Hi Ivor,

Nice to see another Brit on here

I would just add that actually you have three options, because Kenneth's approach differs slightly from Daniel's. Daniel teaches very rapid - nay, even frantic - noting, increasing in speed until you can't even mentally say the noting word, but you use a one syllable "that" to note everything. Kenneth teaches a much slower version where the emphasis is less on capturing everything that arises, but more about fostering equanimity, at least that's been my experience. Kenneth also teaches noting out-loud, which I really can't recommend highly enough. If you're at home, then you can note out-loud without embarrassment!

I made a sheet of useful noting vocabulary for Kenneth's style of noting. If you'd like it, then PM me and I'll email it to you.

Andy

Hi Alvaro, Andy.

Thanks for the replies. Support is a big issue indeed. I am currently talking to someone in the US about some guidance in the Shinzen system but am open to suggestions of course. Basically Im all in for "jarring", no worries there but the Ways appeals because of it's simplicity.

Andy we've actually met face to face I think. On the DhO I am "Bagpuss" and we met in London at Vega

I choose a different name for here mostly to avoid attachment to forum personas but also cos I like old brit kids tv characters

If you need to use up processing power, detailed noting and/or doubles/triplets/quadruplets could be useful. But at high equanimity a simpler style like Shinzen's might feel more natural. Or Kenneth's Mahamudra noting. I lean toward Kenneth's approach of noting about once per second and I use fairly simple notes for seeing and hearing, and then more detailed notes for feeling and thinking (where I personally see more insight "meat"), adjusting the overall level of detail according to my needs in the sit.

"Andy we've actually met face to face I think. On the DhO I am "Bagpuss" and we met in London at Vega

I choose a different name for here mostly to avoid attachment to forum personas but also cos I like old brit kids tv characters "

I should've guessed! Alas, I was more of a Wombles and Super-Ted kind of kid.

"and then more detailed notes for feeling and thinking (where I personally see more insight "meat")"

After just sitting, I'm kind of thinking the 3 characteristics are in everything, but there is a little bit more psychological insight for me in feeling and thinking. Kind of like as long as I'm walking down the sidewalk, I might as well pick up that little piece of trash on the way.

Really glad to see this question as it applies to me too. As far as support goes, Shinzen has small 4 hour telephone ( Skype works) retreats monthly and will answer questions both during the retreat and by email. Hope this helps and I will be really interested to see how this develops either way.