Can thoughts ever fully accept the truth of experience?

It seems that it is the nature of my thoughts to habitually seek some answer beyond THIS, even though time and time again they have the rug pulled from underneath and are shown that ideas and patterns are not reality.

Has anyone here gotten to the point where they feel that their thoughts are in alignment with the flow of reality or is this tug-of-war simply the nature of thought?

What is it that seeks an answer "beyond THIS" - thoughts themselves? What sparks that craving?

The spark is simply habit, and frankly it doesn't bug me that much. The thoughts are just curious if any others have come to a peaceful relationship between thought and insight.

I guess I'm not following you - the thoughts are curious? What do you mean by "a peaceful relationship between thought and insight"? A perfect alignment of thought and realization, or acceptance of thinking as it is? Something else?

That's interesting. I think (!) that the kind of thoughts that are reflections, pondering or analysis of experience are largely indicative of some resistance. If I find myself turning some scenario, conversation or idea over in my mind it invariably (as far as I can recall off the top of my head) points to some discomfort. It may be subtle enough that it takes me a few days to realize what the thought is really pointing to (wanting to know in the face of not knowing, most often). And then, having recognized the real question behind the ponder, it usually disappears. (eta: I mean here thoughts about "practice," so to speak, not thoughts about what to make for dinner or who I need to call tomorrow to finish a work project, etc.)

I tend not to lump "thinking" or "thoughts" in general into one large category that fits that model simply because I've never bothered to pay enough attention to see whether that is 100% true or not. But for thoughts of the sort I mention, it does seem to be true.

Sometimes thoughts are aligned with the flow of reality and sometimes not, but that appears to me to be pretty much coincidental to flow. I can't for the most part control what comes up in my head so I don't process thoughts that way. They come and they go. I don't own them and it doesn't seem to matter. A thought can trigger subsequent thoughts if it reaches a certain threshold, or it can barely be noticed and pass away almost instantly. One thing I'm pretty sure about is that trying to control thoughts, stop them, foster certain kinds, whatever, is counter to living a peaceful, harmonious existence inside the universal flow

I found the following instructions when applied throughout the day to be extremely effective in shifting away from 'seeking' and directing the mind simply to harmlessness which is much more conducive for cultivating a pliant and malleable mind, apt for discernment of that which hasn't been discerned yet. Seeking gets in the way. Grease the wheels!

"The Blessed One said, "Monks, before my self-awakening, when I was still just an unawakened Bodhisatta, the thought occurred to me: 'Why don't I keep dividing my thinking into two sorts?' So I made thinking imbued with sensuality, thinking imbued with ill will, & thinking imbued with harmfulness one sort, and thinking imbued with renunciation, thinking imbued with non-ill will, & thinking imbued with harmlessness another sort.

....

"Whatever a monk keeps pursuing with his thinking & pondering, that becomes the inclination of his awareness. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with renunciation, abandoning thinking imbued with sensuality, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with renunciation. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with non-ill will, abandoning thinking imbued with ill will, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with non-ill will. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with harmlessness, abandoning thinking imbued with harmfulness, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with harmlessness."

www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.019.than.html

That's the Buddhist version of self-hypnosis

I have found simple awareness very effective; just observe, then let go. My guess is "what works" has as many manifestations as there are those of us who try these things.

"Has anyone here gotten to the point where they feel that their thoughts are in alignment with the flow of reality or is this tug-of-war simply the nature of thought?"

Yeah, I have for certain periods. Not always, which still strikes me as a good thing. I have the experience frequently where thoughts are experienced as a subtle, quiet physical sensation in the skull, no different from an energy moving through my leg or arm and not invested in any more either. It's been helpful for me at times to disengage by acknowledging the truth that I have absolutely no choice over what thought is appearing in this moment. I tend to give something more power if I think I can control it, or if it is somehow my responsibility to do so.

The responses so far have been helpful, but I want to dig deeper into this tangent. I am not speaking here about the standard route of trying to accept or get rid of thoughts, I am talking about the belief structures themselves being reformatted.

Has anyone here successfully reformatted their belief structures based on their insight so that thought is no longer the enemy of awareness?

I have made some progress on this by believing certain Buddhist views, but I still have a ton of thoughts that are in opposition to moment-by-moment realization.

Can you give a concrete example? (eta: including how your current view does or doesn't seem helpful)?

Thanks gira. Concrete examples:

"Now I've got it figured out! There is only experiencing and it is without suffering. This is the Truth"
"Maybe there is something to this Actualism stuff, I wish I was more blissed out right now."
"Should I mow my lawn today? Do I care what my neighbors think? Does not mowing cause them undue suffering?"
"I'm perfectly peaceful right now, but maybe I'm too aloof to really connect with those around me."
"I spend too much time on the computer, I should really be engaging with my family."
"Being awake was way more fun and juicy when I thought that I was Awareness that experience was occurring within."

The first two are more obvious mental traps that usually the mind sees as silly and just lets go of. The latter is more exemplary of the sort of commentary that trips me up. I could just dodge these issues by resting in the peace of the moment, but there is an annoyingly compelling quality to them.

"Thanks gira. Concrete examples:

"Now I've got it figured out! There is only experiencing and it is without suffering. This is the Truth"
"Maybe there is something to this Actualism stuff, I wish I was more blissed out right now."
"Should I mow my lawn today? Do I care what my neighbors think? Does not mowing cause them undue suffering?"
"I'm perfectly peaceful right now, but maybe I'm too aloof to really connect with those around me."
"I spend too much time on the computer, I should really be engaging with my family."
"Being awake was way more fun and juicy when I thought that I was Awareness that experience was occurring within."

The first two are more obvious mental traps that usually the mind sees as silly and just lets go of. The latter is more exemplary of the sort of commentary that trips me up. I could just dodge these issues by resting in the peace of the moment, but there is an annoyingly compelling quality to them."

Aha! I see. As an old man once told me years ago: "You think too much!" (Which at the time made me want to slap him. )

In those sorts of thoughts (which I generally lump in the category of "doubts and fears") I think the annoyingly compelling quality (ie your *relationship* to the thoughts) is probably the most interesting place to pay attention. The content of the thoughts is really random, irrelevant, etc. How you respond (annoyingly compelled in this case) speaks to the attachment/aversion which is more productive to pay attention to (not change, but just notice. It 'self-liberates' if you keep noticing it, I find). Paying attention to the content just feeds the trolls/demons.

That's my strategy with such things, I'd say. (I don't think I have very many thoughts of that type regularly; sometimes though.)

Another thought, regarding the content itself, you usually just know, don't you, too? Sometimes the self-critical type thoughts are because you are resisting the right thing to do, which is intuitively known already and shouldn't require any internal discussion, just semi-spontaneous allowing. Which comes back around to trusting awakening, in a sense, I think. ie when that impulse arises to step away from the computer and go play with your child or wash the dishes, allow it to act itself without resistance, rather than having a ten minute internal argument. Or allow that the argument is part of the unfolding of experience, too, just as it is. Usually you just know what the right thing to do is, if you listen from the heart or whatever you like to call it. Curious if what I say makes any sense or not. Fine if it doesn't!

"Has anyone here successfully reformatted their belief structures based on their insight so that thought is no longer the enemy of awareness?" -- Justin

In my experience this is not about beliefs, belief structures or concepts in any way. It is instead about a deeply felt realization that thoughts qua thoughts are just not important in the deeper scheme of things, so "believing" any of them is just not the issue. Not believing thoughts simply becomes a default way of observing the world.

Not sure if it helps, Justin, but this is how this appears to me these days.

Different strokes for different folks. I found questioning every single locked in thought loop (beliefs) about everything that arose in the mind to condition what I did and didn't do mentally, vocally and physically to be one of the most prpgressive acts i have ever done on the path. One can get very equanimous with their locked in thought loops and allow them to continuously condition what one has to be equanimous with. And such thoughts could be so subtle, right at the back of the mind, not a long string of words, but a subtle holding of experience as a certain idea or notion. Investigating and questioning their validity and weight was enough to make them go poof! and when they dropped, experience was allowed to be experienced unconditioned by them. Beliefs get real sublte all the way to a belief that this sensation/thought is to be seen and evaluated (held) in a certain way. I found that there was a lot if that very subte holding in place.....views (locked in thought loops based on how the mind holds the 'path') mold and condition the 'path'. An interesting pointer while continuing to do whatever it is one does in practice: What if there were no beliefs or views of 'experience' arising to condition what is occuring right now? Allow every subtle idea or notion about experience to drop away, and see how one's practice shifts as a result. I also found some locked in thought loops that I found myself not believing. Yet they continued to arise because there was some aspect that was triggering them. There was the belief that they had to be a apart of experience regardless of whether they were believed or not. In my own experience, beliefs (the act of holding some aspect of experience in anyway) is what conditioned how experience is experienced.

thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com.au/2011/...tioning-beliefs.html

I sincerely appreciate the responses. So far, it seems that the answer to my question is

"No. We have not experienced a reformatting of beliefs or a change in the content of thoughts in alignment with realization."

If it is the case that such reformatting is unlikely, then perhaps the pursuit of any sort of values will always result in tension.

"I sincerely appreciate the responses. So far, it seems that the answer to my question is

"No. We have not experienced a reformatting of beliefs or a change in the content of thoughts in alignment with realization."

If it is the case that such reformatting is unlikely, then perhaps the pursuit of any sort of values will always result in tension."

If by reformatting you mean changing one belief for another, yes, i did it via hacking vedana (changing belief in how a sensation should be held). This was aligned with the realisation that a pliant and malleable mind can fabricate perception as one wishes. If you are talking about views, then I would go with no views over holding any view tightly. This was due to seeing that the inherent purity of no view whatsoever trumps all view-conditioned experiences. Views I think can be tinged with beliefs as well as actual experiential wisdom. Perhaps investigating what is based on that wisdom and what is simply a baseless locked in thought loop could be a way to reformat beliefs: from belief conditioning experience to unlocked fluffy residual thoughts that no longer act as conditioning factors.

"
If it is the case that such reformatting is unlikely, then perhaps the pursuit of any sort of values will always result in tension."

If by values you mean considering the needs of your family or neighbors, for example, I think it useful to work from where you are. If you feel unsure of what ethical decisions to make and the "right thing to do" doesn't arise spontaneously, then better to use (temporarily or otherwise) some view that supports kindness, compassion, etc. as a bridge. It seems to me that many practices act as bridges. The practice (view, belief, whatever) is not necessarily important in itself (ie as something to hang on to) but can act as a tool to process through some sticky place. So "resting in awareness" for example may not really be important in the long run, but can serve as a practice that ends up transforming the relationship to the annoyingly compelling thoughts. Obviously there are other choices, too.

Justin, may I ask you to clarify the issue, please? Are you asking if the content of thoughts has changed due to practice such that all one's thoughts are then aligned with some normative view? I'm not sure how words like "reformatting" apply to things like thoughts and thinking. I'm also unsure just what you mean by using the words "alignment with realization." I suspect you're asking us if thoughts of certain types have ceased to exist because they're not... well, I'm not sure what you're asking at this point. Thus my request for clarification.

If I look at your original question in post #1 my answer is "It is the nature of thought to sometimes not be in agreement with the flow of experience." The real question then becomes "What do we do about that?"

Nik, your response was exactly the type of thing I was looking for. Thank you. I'm sorry for not being able to communicate this question very well.

If any others have adopted new useful viewpoints, beliefs, or strategies for hacking the relative world I would love to hear them.

Gira, the idea of using practices as bridges to solve problems that don't have an immediate clear answer is very useful. Thank you.

cmarti, It seems to me that the content of thoughts is derived from underlying belief systems, models of reality, and values. So, if I am okay with having thoughts, but might like to improve their content, then my hypothesis would be that you would need to adjust the underlying belief systems. This is what I mean by "reformatting". This is just a weird wild hypothesis, but I'm curious about it nonetheless.

One concrete example may be to change the habit of thinking of anything as a "thing" or "noun" and start thinking of everything in terms of "verbs" or "processes". The verbing view of reality is not fully true, but seems more truthy than the "reality is solid stuff" view.

Justin, it sounds like what you are talking about is similar to what is dealt with in some branches of developmental psychology. See for instance: www.stillpointintegral.com/docs/cook-greuter.pdf which you are probably already familiar with since I think you are familiar with Wilberian integralism, to which this presentation is related. Such reformatting is a core element of developmental change. The question of the relationship between such developmental changes in belief structures on the one hand and awakening on the other is complex and fascinating, but I suspect is very little understood. For instance how about the reverse possibility, that undergoing developmental shifts in the understanding of self, world, causality, emotions, etc. to a certain point may make awakening more likely with less intensive technical practice? (Rather than looking at how interpretive paradigms shift after awakening.) What do you think?

Awesome - That is the kind of stuff I am looking for. Thanks for the link!