"assessmentally challenged" or no-wow club pre-SE?

I thought I'd write down some yadayada that maybe some other lurkers/writers can relate to and end it with a video tip

I had my first talk with Ron yesterday and it was great. But it really strikes me again when trying to relate my experiences, how impaired my ability is to correlate my experiences with the descriptions of the stages in the progress of insight.
In fact I am not sure of any of the stages. For instance the only reason I guess I have been in A&P territory is that Kenneth suggested it in one of my logs. So external input is valuable. But I never had the "things are feeling easy", "religious mega experiences", "flashes", "being energized" or "sleeping less". The only thing I personally get sometimes is a feeling of having light directed at my eyes.
And fear, disgust, sadness... Is it Dark night or 3Cs or just stage-unrelated emotions?

In fact, for me the only stage I really think describes my experiences is low equanimity, and basically I spent several months there (and I sort of slipped back out of it some days ago).

So... There is a no-wow club, and I vote for a special interest group for prepathers

And here is a great video discussing the maps including some other criteria for progress, cortesy of Shinzen Y.

I love this idea - the no-wow club!

Your not the only one Meekan, this is true for LOTS of folks I've met. It seems that for some people the stages are indeed there, but they are like a weak radio signal with lots of static. They just don't notice them as they go through them and then suddenly - path! what!?

I've wondered about this. Why is it that some folks have such a clear and crisp view of the stages as they go through them while others can't see them clearly? Is it technique? Is it level of concentration? Is it something unique to the individual? I think this is the cutting edge of what we know and at this point it is a bit of guess as why people differ. I would love to hear more people chime in and validate that their experiences were blurry and indistinct too.

Meekan,
This is actually a big part of why I completely abandoned this map. I could imagine myself anywhere or nowhere on it. Rumor has it I'm 2nd or 3rd path. So what? And with Kenneth constantly changing the map it doesn't inspire confidence that anyone knows whats going on.
Since changing practice and ignoring this map I can see progress in my day to day life, and that's what counts, to me. Don't feel like you have to stay with one practice or map if it isn't working for you. The dharma is deep and wide, find what WORKS and stick with it!
On a lighter note I'd like to suggest "No Wow", by The Kills() as the theme song for your club. Great garage rock duo.

B.

This may be an unnecessary distinction to make but Kenneth has not changed the Theravada maps up through the Fourth Theravada Path. Like you, B.Rice, I tend to discount the maps but up through the attainment of 4th Path I believe they are useful within reason for most Theravada practitioners. I would resist throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Kenneth's post-4th Path maps are pretty speculative, IMHO, and I believe less descriptive of a *common* set of experiences that most practitioners will find in their practice.

YMMV

By the way, I am now a devotee of the new Daniel Ingram version of all of all this map and experience stuff -- otherwise known as the Naturalist View

For many I've met, too, Ron. And they do make progress, just in that very subtle quiet way. For what it's worth, my meditation experiences used to be on the extreme side of loud. They are now pretty darn quiet. But it can be quite motivating to have those big wows. It can actually be demotivating, too - now and then I meet someone who is unnerved by loud experiences in meditation and doesn't want to meditate anymore because of that. So it can work both ways.

"Why is it that some folks have such a clear and crisp view of the stages as they go through them while others can't see them clearly?" -- Ron Crouch

I suspect two things are going on (at least two things):

1. If you don't have any knowledge of the Theravada maps you probably won't see that particular pattern of experiences as you progress through them. I started out in Zen and got pretty close to stream entry that way without any clue about the Theravada maps. This is just how the mind works. We interpret experience through the lens of what we know. I was able to sort of see the pattern after learning about it in MCTB, but I'm not so sure that isn't a mentally convenient re-interpretation. Who knows?

2. Practitioners have differing levels of sensitivity regarding the ability to "see" the layers of experience describe in the Theravada maps. I'm more toward the insensitive side of the spectrum. Kenneth Folk is probably more on the sensitive side. We have the same knowledge of the maps (see #1) but don't have the same perceptual acuity when it comes to knowing where we are on them.

Anyway, that's my silly little contribution...

"
...up through the attainment of 4th Path I believe they are useful within reason for most Theravada practitioners. I would resist throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Kenneth's post-4th Path maps are pretty speculative, IMHO, and I believe less descriptive of a *common* set of experiences that most practitioners will find in their practice.
"

Maybe this is why the Theravada maps stop where they do. The original authors must have found out as others have that 4th path is not the end. Maybe it's just the end of predictable development.

I had my first talk with Ron yesterday and it was great. But it really strikes me again when trying to relate my experiences, how impaired my ability is to correlate my experiences with the descriptions of the stages in the progress of insight.
==============
My experience exactly. Ron said I had experiences of certain levels but not of previous ones. He said I might be running through levels without knowing it. Ron to his credit did not try to force anything and accepted my experiences as they were. He also had some great suggestions.

I don't worry about maps or identifying jhana states. I just do my practice.

jack

"By the way, I am now a devotee of the new Daniel Ingram version of all of all this map and experience stuff -- otherwise known as the Naturalist View

"

Chris, any more info on D.I.'s Naturalist View? Thanks

Great discussion!
I "knew" I was not alone.
I myself don't worry that much about stages either. I did worry some time ago and then more or less dropped them altogether.
Nowadays I don't care that much in relation to my own day to day practice but am aware it's the dominating way to categorize experiences and describe progress. And getting external input from teachers and co-meditators is very valuable!

Here's a thought on why some people "see" the nanas and others don't...

It strikes me that there are two extremes of being disembedded - one is where you are very "witness-y" and are standing back and almost narrating the context experience. The other is very "flow-y" where you are very aware of sensations, close-up as not-self, moment to moment, but are without much experience of context. And of course, there is a spectrum from one extreme to the other.

There is a biological analogue with vision: the splatter (wide angle) vision and the focused on object (narrow angle) vision.

Just some ideas.

I find there is some connection with whether people engage with/perceive the phenomena called energy/qi/kundalini in traditions like qi gong or yoga. It's a correlation, I think, not a causal thing: for example people who can do kundalini exercises and feel a zippy result are the same kinds of people who will have big loud experiences in meditation. These are also the same kinds of people who are more prone to visions, spirit interactions, charismatic/ecstatic experiences in church, etc. I don't know why some people have this sensitivity and others don't. My qi gong teacher says she has some students who practice for months or even years without really feeling anything besides relaxed or invigorated. Others start the classes and before you know it are having really loud and clear experiences of energy movement. This was true in Santeria, too: some people had a natural 'talent' for trance, possession and other loud spirit interactions; others never developed those experiences, even with the same training. Both kinds of people had their respected roles in the community. I'm going to guess it's an individual "wiring" thing. Some people are wired for loud and some for subtle. I can't know for sure, though.

As usual, we're all long on theory and short on data

Four years into my practice I had a conversation with Vince Horn. He asked what my practice had been like up until that point. With the exception of the 3 characteristics and disgust, I described for him the hallmarks of the stages as outlined in the progress of insight up to reobservation. I had no knowledge of the stages. I thought I was just going through a difficult and turbulent series of years. When he directed me to the maps I was shocked. In my case the maps were valid, but everyone's experience is their own and people are attuned to differenent aspects of practice.

"Four years into my practice I had a conversation with Vince Horn. He asked what my practice had been like up until that point. ."

So this was your pre-stream entry practice?

Yes

I had a very similar experience, the maps seem to be right on for SE. They're comforting for the dark night stages (these experience arising are in some way not totally my fault) and a big motivation to keep practicing even in equanimity (where there isn't much of a problem or sense of progress).