Laurel III

Awesome stuff. Thanks for sharing. Sounds like you are cooking now!

Lest we forget our own KFDh resources:

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/video/101...+Jhanas+%281+of+7%29
kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/video/101...ed+Tour+%282+of+7%29
kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/video/101...ed+Tour+%283+of+7%29
kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/video/101...ed+Tour+%28Part+4%29
kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/video/101...ed+Tour+%28Part+5%29
kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/video/101...ed+Tour+%286+of+7%29
kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/video/101...ed+Tour+%287+of+7%29


A well done series of videos that prove a moving picture is worth, well, several thousands of words.

Chris, I've watched these in the past, and they came to my mind during the retreat, because Leigh's approach and methods are so much different from what's depicted here. No one, not even Leigh, would get into first jhana as quickly as Nikolai is doing here using the methods I was taught, nor would a person be likely to be able to talk and interact with someone while in the jhanic states as I was practicing them (at least I don't think so). I'm not trying to claim these videos aren't real, or that they aren't really jhanas, only that there's a profound difference between what Leigh is doing and what Kenneth is doing, even if there's a resemblance on the surface.

I suppose at some point the two of them could get together (and maybe throw in a couple of Pa Auk Sayadaw's students for good measure) and thrash this out, and come to some sort of understanding; then again, maybe not. This may be one of those things that people have to agree to disagree about. But there is a distinct difference between what they're doing. This is an example of my needing to just accept that there are different teachers with different ideas about what's real.

"No one, not even Leigh, would get into first jhana as quickly as Nikolai is doing here using the methods I was taught,
"

At that time, to fashion each jhana via instant will of mind intent as seen in the videos above was only due to an ability which just appeared post 1st cessation of the senses on retreat 6 months before the videos were made. Though I did briefly experience a flip in the brain before that cessation a day before, which miraculously gave me access to profoundly absorbed states of mind, the powerful instant will of mind access only appeared post 1st cessation. I emphasize 'profoundly absorbed'. Over 6 months since that 1st cessation of the senses, I went in and out of them daily whenever awake, so the ability to move the mind at will was cultivated to greater heights. The 'handles' of each jhana always there. Very absorbed and still. You will notice in the videos that after the 6th jhana, I have to snap myself out of the 7th on upwards because I was unable to vocalise and even think. When I'm speaking, I'm actually hovering on the 'edge' of them. They could go much, much deeper and really really really absorbed.

Perhaps Leigh has not experienced the '1st cessation' (regardless of whether it is considered SE or not, as some groups dispute it outright). I did not for 8 years of hardcore practice. I know others who have not after 20 years practice and yet they develop in their chosen tradition the techniques and approaches that are of them. They just don't have the will of mind stuff brain change happen.

A contributing factor maybe be a practice of 8 years previous, controlling and willing the mind to do stuff it didn't want to while in the goenka tradition and this may have led to the 1st cessation brain change having a much greater effect for jhana access.

Jhana these days is a different kettle of fish and another story.

Kenneth has talked a bit about this in the past, here are two other relevant articles:

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Q+%2...ration+Meditation%29

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/20+Major+Strata+of+Mind

The first link has this:

"The genius of the Mahasi Method (Burmese vipassana) is that it takes advantage of the fact that in order to make progress through the Insight Knowledges (otherwise known as developmental enlightenment), it is not necessary to develop these strata of mind to the level suggested by Mr. Wallace. In fact, doing so is seen as an unwise investment of time if your goal is enlightenment. The Burmese have proven in many thousands of individual cases that people can attain to high levels of enlightenment without mastering the samatha jhanas to the extreme levels Mr. Wallace describes

Also check out the "Blessed Brotherhood of the BMX" metaphore near the bottom.

Laurel, when you were going through the jhanas, did you notice any similarities to the corresponding ñanas? The idea is that jhanas and ñanas are two sides of the same coin (strata of mind), and that one can access these strata along a continuum of insight and absorption. According to that interpretation, Nikolai and Kenneth were doing a very "vipassana-ish" form of jhana.

Nik, one speculation I entertained about what you were doing in those videos was that you had developed capabilities by virtue of your realization at that time; this seems to have been the case. I believe Leigh has experienced 1st cessation, but he most likely did not attempt to do what you were doing because it wouldn't have occurred to him, or did not easily experience the jhanas spontaneously as you had done. He was trained by Ayya Khema and followed her methods. But of course we'd have to ask him to know for sure. In any case, thanks for the clarification. One thing about those videos: when I first saw them, I wondered why I couldn't do the same. Now I know.

Betawave, I think one point that I haven't heard anyone dispute so far is that jhana is not necessary for stream entry or even second path, although it seems generally agreed that some form of these concentration states are needed to attain higher paths. I'll take a look at those articles when I get a chance.

Apperception, I didn't notice similarities to nanas. Leigh was pretty dismissive about vipassana jhanas, so there's another difference. He said many people had tried to explain them to him, but he just didn't get it. I personally found the sequence I was taught was quite different from anything I'd experienced doing insight meditation, but I might come to different conclusions if I were to work with them more over a longer period of time. I didn't experience kriyas or vibrations, for example.

What Nick said

I have a similar experience - jhana access just showed up as a seemingly developmental sign post, after attainment of stream entry/first path. Whereas before much effort was required to access even 1st jhana after SE jhanas would come on with almost no effort, at will, by inclining the mind to accept them.

I can easily envision a case (many, actually) where a practitioner is bound up in accessing jhanas PRE-SE to the extent that they focus only on that and skip or really downplay investigation/noting/etc. and never get very far. We know these sidetracks happen to a lot of folks, Laurel, so please be careful as your own practice is evidence of a more efficient alternative

I have to say just one more thing here -- never take any teacher's version of things as gospel. Never. There is simply too much variation involved, and too many phenomena and ordering issues. It's likely true that no one is right about everything.

Be skeptical, test for yourself. YOUR experience is what matters.

" I believe Leigh has experienced 1st cessation, but he most likely did not attempt to do what you were doing because it wouldn't have occurred to him, or did not easily experience the jhanas spontaneously as you had done. He was trained by Ayya Khema and followed her methods.

"

Asking him would be the best way (it'd be great if you did) but if we simply speculate futher on the evidence that is present, we can look at Ayya Khema's version of 'magga' and 'phala', literally path and fruit or fruition.

START OF QUOTE: "The path moment doesn't have any thinking or feeling in it. It is not comparable to the meditative absorptions (jhana). Although it is based upon them because only the concentrated mind can enter into a path moment, it does not have the same qualities. the meditative absorptions have '” in their initial stages '” the ingredients of rapture, happiness and peacefulness. Later on, the mind experiences expansion, nothingness and a change of perception. The path moment does not contain any of these states of mind."

"It has a quality of non-being. This is such a relief and changes one's world view so totally that it is quite understandable that the Buddha made such a distinction between a worldling and a Noble One. While the meditative absorptions bring with them a feeling of oneness, of unity, the path moment does not even contain that. The moment of fruition, subsequent to the path moment, is the understood experience and results in a turned-around vision of existence." thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com.au/2011/...hening-fruition.html

Continued..

"The new understanding recognizes every thought, every feeling as stress (dukkha). The most elevated thought, the most sublime feeling still has this quality. Only when there is nothing, is there no stress. There is nothing internal or external that contains the quality of total satisfactoriness. Because of such an inner vision, the passion for wanting anything is discarded. All has been seen for what it really is and nothing can give the happiness that arises through the practice of the path and its results."
"The Nibbanic element cannot be truly described as bliss, because bliss has a connotation of exhilaration. We use the word "bliss" for the meditative absorption, where it includes a sense of excitement. The Nibbanic element does not recognize bliss because all that arises is seen as stress. "The bliss of Nibbana" may give one the impression that one may find perfect happiness, but the opposite is true. One finds that there is nothing and therefore no more unhappiness, only peace. " END OF QUOTE

If we speculate that he has experienced 'fruition', is it the fruition as decribed by Ayya Khema or the 'cessation of all the senses' of the pragmatic crowd, the infamous blip? Reading Ayya Khema's description, it sounds like something I've experienced, but it does not appear to be the same as the cessation of the senses.

What seems key to many of the differences and what others may take as hard to believe, is many of us (PragD) have turned on a physical/mental switch in the brain, a literal brain change that has allowed for such 'easy access' to supposedly high states of mind. One could simply bypass such a brain change and develop differently by not triggering such a development. Jhanas would be quite a different experience, the entrance and exit as well as duration and quality would most probably be quite different as it appears to be.

"The path moment doesn't have any thinking or feeling in it"

"The path moment does not contain any of these states of mind"

"It has a quality of non-being"

"Only when there is nothing, is there no stress"

"There is nothing internal or external that contains the quality of total satisfactoriness. Because of such an inner vision, the passion for wanting anything is discarded"

"The Nibbanic element does not recognize bliss because all that arises is seen as stress"

"One finds that there is nothing and therefore no more unhappiness, only peace."

I don't see how this contradicts the sort of path moment described in MCTB.

"This is the fruit of all the meditator's hard work, the first attainment of ultimate reality, emptiness, Nirvana, God or whatever you wish to call it. In this non-state, there is absolutely no time, no space, no reference point, no experience, no mind, no consciousness, no nothingness, no somethingness, no body, no this, no that, no unity, no duality, and no anything else. Reality stops cold and then reappears. Thus, this is impossible to comprehend, as it goes completely and utterly beyond the rational mind and the sensate universe. To 'external time' (if someone were observing the meditator from the outside) this lasts only an instant. It is like an utter discontinuity of the space-time continuum with nothing in the unfindable gap. "

"I can easily envision a case (many, actually) where a practitioner is bound up in accessing jhanas PRE-SE to the extent that they focus only on that and skip or really downplay investigation/noting/etc. and never get very far. We know these sidetracks happen to a lot of folks, Laurel, so please be careful as your own practice is evidence of a more efficient alternative

"

Absolutely. I personally benefited greatly from the retreat, and got a higher level of absorption than I've been able to get even post-SE, although one thing I'll mention: during that period, I had piti energy saturation all the time, and had I sat and done what Nik did, I might have been able to move up the jhanic arc. The problem is, I couldn't settle myself enough to do it. This retreat helped with all of that. So everyone's mind is different.

I haven't become a convert to Leigh Brasington-ism, nor would he want that. I totally agree that we have to test these things ourselves. I've reported what I experienced, because I think it's useful for our community to toss these things around. I've already learned a lot from the replies I've read here. Nik, your citation of Ayya Khema is further evidence that these phenomena are multivalent. I really can't begin to penetrate all of the facets of these teachings at this point.

The one thing I do see, though, is that it is possible to spend years cultivating samadhi and not get on with the practice of insight (although Leigh stressed over and over that insight is where it's really at). My "dry insight" practice has been the engine that's gotten me where I am. I am not about to kick the ladder out from under myself now

Okay, so we need to update the T-shirt to say "The Dry Insight No-Big-Wow Club"

Very interesting account of your retreat, Laurel!
I really don't know the first thing about jhana, but sounds interesting!

"

Mu said of Ayya Khema's description of path: I don't see how this contradicts the sort of path moment described in MCTB.

"

How would someone know all of what Ayya khema talks of after the cessation of the senses?

You remember what the cessation was like while it was taking place? Or was there awareness only before and after?
The after-cessation bliss wave is what makes one equate it?

I take Ayya Khema's description to be of a conscious experience as she goes into some detail as to what happens in that very moment of path and fruition. It doesn't appear to be an unconscious experience that is the cessation talked of around here. It would seem then that she is grasping at something she couldn't possibly remember (due to having all of the senses in cessation and essentially unconscious for a moment.). So from that I gather she is talking of a conscious experience. The only conscious experience is the entry and exit of cessation of the senses, the infamous blip, conk out, sudden blacking out and coming back online.

Perhaps this should be its own thread?

"The path moment doesn't have any thinking or feeling in it. " - neither does the blip

"It is not comparable to the meditative absorptions (jhana)." - neither is the blip

"Although it is based upon them because only the concentrated mind can enter into a path moment, it does not have the same qualities. the meditative absorptions have '” in their initial stages '” the ingredients of rapture, happiness and peacefulness. Later on, the mind experiences expansion, nothingness and a change of perception. The path moment does not contain any of these states of mind." - same goes for the blip (you need to be concentrated, and it has no qualities of the preceding jhanas)

"It has a quality of non-being." - so does the blip

"This is such a relief and changes one's world view so totally that it is quite understandable that the Buddha made such a distinction between a worldling and a Noble One." - I would agree with feeling this way post stream entry

"While the meditative absorptions bring with them a feeling of oneness, of unity, the path moment does not even contain that." - right - the blip doesn't contain oneness or unity

"The moment of fruition, SUBSEQUENT to the path moment, is the understood experience and results in a turned-around vision of existence." - to me this seems to describe the aftershock of the blip

"The new understanding recognizes every thought, every feeling as stress (dukkha). The most elevated thought, the most sublime feeling still has this quality. Only when there is nothing, is there no stress. - as it is in the blip (no experience)

etc. (character limit). This is where my thinking was at while reading it, but yeah maybe I'm just interpreting it differently. No need for further discussion or another thread the quote says what it says I guess -take from it what you will.

Laurel, you can have your practice thread back

I thought I would share a recipe for chili first...

Really, that would be preferable to talking about my latest sits, which have been a lot of nothing. I snoozed through an attempt at a body-scan yesterday, because I'm sleep deprived; then today I had a hard time getting settled, decided to work from access concentration, and had a lot of kriyas and some itches and tingles. All of the activity in my daily life at the change of the academic year is mixing it up a bit, and I'm waiting to settle down.

My takeaway from this morning's sit: it is really difficult to stay in 7th jhana when you can hear your pet cockatiel working on his rendition of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" upstairs. I started to smile, backed out of the jhanas, and switched to insight. Not much going on there; lots of dreamlike stuff. Since I've been working on the jhanas, the dreams are more vivid, like lucid dreams. I also had a lot of vibratory sensations. Some gentle rocking from time to time, but rather muffled bodily sensations (except for hearing the cockatiel, who at that point gave up on practicing and resorted to his familiar wolf-whistle).

1 hour sit this morning; began with a lot of distracting thoughts. Counted breaths 1-8 for awhile, then when I felt more concentrated I switched to just observing the breath. Stayed in access for longer than typical, finally got into 1st jhana. Worked at focusing on pleasure so that the jhana factors manifested strongly, then moved into second, where I stayed for awhile. At third I started struggling with torpor. Came out after awhile and silently repeated the 5 contemplations, then did a combination of choiceless awareness and noting. Everything feels pretty muffled and submerged. More dreamlike stuff, plus the visual field was vibrating, as was the body. No strong bodily sensations.

It's been awhile. I've been having lots of trouble sleeping, but saw a really accomplished acupuncturist yesterday and things are already getting better. Got in half an hour this morning. Lots of distracting thoughts at first, went to insight from access concentration and felt gentle vibrations alternating with hypnogogic stuff. This seems to be the norm for insight practice these days.

One hour this morning for the first time in a long while. Did jhana practice up to 5th, back down again. What typically happens after that is I intend to switch to insight, but I'm usually at a bit of loose ends. This morning I recited the four contemplations, then just kind of sat there, did some noting here and there, did open awareness. Things seemed to flicker past me, through me, around me. Some dreams, some thoughts, some sensations, some vibrations. I felt submerged through most of it. I kept thinking there was something else I ought to be doing, but couldn't quite determine what. Noticed this.

I haven't posted in a long while. On Friday, I had the best practice I've had in days. I got up to 4th jhana, came back out of it, then started to meditate on my own death. I experienced a realization of this that is much clearer than anything I've had before.

Since then, I feel as if I've been set way back. I could barely get access concentration the next day. I've gotten into 1st jhana once, but in other sits, nothing. Still, I'm persevering, but not with the kind of regularity I'd like.

Part of what's bugging me is a pattern where I'll make tremendous progress and then lose interest in continuing for awhile. It's like a backlash. I also don't seem to believe I'll ever make 3rd path. This is part of the legacy of the Leigh Brasington retreat, I think.

In daily life I'm for the most part seeing the rewards of practice. I don't personalize much of anything any more. That's all to the good.