Adyashanti on Different Kinds of Awakening

I guess he refers to teachings that can be found in the basic tantric teachings and tibetan buddhism (in the path of tools) and have their roots in the Kashmir Shivaism.

They all define enlightenment as enlightenment of all layers (and even more, because the pelvis is also a layer).

An enlightenment of f.e. mind-only, is no enlightenment even if people misinterpret it, but it leads to a loss of emotions etc.

"What do you mean by "discernment"?"

Figuring out which of the many possible options for understanding and addressing the problem is the right one for you. The more entangled a person is in their psychological stuff or stories, the more difficult it is to know what the right thing to do is, because you tend to act from those stories (ie one tends to make poorer decisions about life choices). The more disentangled you are, the more (I think) you are able to address what's going on in a productive way, because you can get to the heart of the matter, so to speak. That's a bit off the top of my head, but it seems true in my experience. Thoughts?

"Oops yes, I forgot her! But it's frustrating that he glosses over the awakenings of himself and his fellow teachers. He inadvertantly ends up suggesting that awakening only happens to revered Asian teachers."

I accidentally disliked because of Iphone. Irony abounds.

@giragirasol: I am interested in post 26. Do you have a real life example of a situation like this? I tend to learn a lot better with examples.

I guess I'm thinking of all the times people lash out or do self-sabotaging things because underneath they are just afraid, but they can't see that. Like quitting school or a job because the teacher/boss/whoever said something insulting, when that isn't really good for your long term well being and is a childish angry reaction to something that isn't even important and wouldn't even insult you if you didn't have a chip on your shoulder about how people talk around you. Or spending money you don't have on unnecessary things as a way of comforting yourself, because you don't even recognize that underneath the constant spending (or drinking!) is a need for love, comfort and safety. Or getting pissed off because someone cuts you off and spending the next ten minutes endangering yourself and others by trying to get revenge. Or giving up on your practice because you are in a dark night. Or doing some activity, practice or whatever because all your friends are, even if it's not really good for you, because feeling like you fit in or your pride is more important than recognizing what you need to be healthy and happy. etc. That's the kind of thing I meant. Does that help? Or just make it more confusing?

Very much. Thank you.

"...it's frustrating that (Kornfield) glosses over the awakenings of himself and his fellow teachers. He inadvertantly ends up suggesting that awakening only happens to revered Asian teachers." -AndyW45

I agree. The first generation of American vipassana teachers were especially at risk for this kind of hero worship. They were able to "otherize" the Asian teachers and project perfection (or at least specialness) upon them. They never saw such perfection in themselves or in their intimate colleagues precisely because they knew themselves and their colleagues so well. The culture and language barriers between themselves and their Asian teachers enabled a sweet but naive reverence toward the Asians... the Western disciples never got close enough to see the humanity. This is not a surprise on hindsight, because the Western disciples were desperately looking for specialness in their teachers and would have been predisposed to ignore any evidence to the contrary. After all, to admit that their teachers were no more special than themselves would have undermined the seeking impulse.

This reminds me of the Tibetan admonition that one should choose a lama who lives at least three valleys away. This is a tacit if not-so-subtle warning that you will not be able to project specialness upon someone you know well, along with an acknowledgement that such a projection, however naive, can be a powerful tool in helping a student to awaken. There will be plenty of time for growing up after awakening.

Now we move into a new era; in modern western culture, disclosure and transparency are built in. We are not going to be able to see our teachers as special or other. A new kind of grown-up-ness is called for. It's a death of innocence, and we shall see how quickly we adapt to it. Can the sharing of awakening from teacher to student survive the death of the perfection ideal? I say "yes." What do y'all say?

"Can the sharing of awakening from teacher to student survive the death of the perfection ideal? I say "yes." What do y'all say?"

If the number of people waking up here is any indication, I'd say we're doing fine.

"Figuring out which of the many possible options for understanding and addressing the problem is the right one for you. The more entangled a person is in their psychological stuff or stories, the more difficult it is to know what the right thing to do is, because you tend to act from those stories (ie one tends to make poorer decisions about life choices). The more disentangled you are, the more (I think) you are able to address what's going on in a productive way, because you can get to the heart of the matter, so to speak. That's a bit off the top of my head, but it seems true in my experience. Thoughts?"

Yes, this sounds right. It's also part of the larger project of discernment, which is making sure, individually and as a group, that there's more to this than simply imposing a pattern, mystical or otherwise, on to reality.

""This reminds me of the Tibetan admonition that one should choose a lama who lives at least three valleys away.""

In that case, both the mainstream Dharma Jet Set and the Pragmatic Dharma Internet Sangha are good ideas!

Recently, I have been thinking a great deal about the inevitable modernisation of Buddhism and other contemplative traditions, and the question of who has the authority to innovate. While some innovations can be open and democratic, such as questioning patriarchal attitudes in traditional Buddhism, when it comes to the more technical aspects of insight we need innovators with the right qualifications. Otherwise we get dilution of the teachings and lowest-common-denominator dharma. The trouble is, no one knows what qualifications most Western dharma teachers have. Are they awakened? And to what extent? And (coming back to the topic of this thread) what flavour of awakening do they teach?

"Recently, I have been thinking a great deal about the inevitable modernisation of Buddhism and other contemplative traditions, and the question of who has the authority to innovate." -AndyW45

I think it's more a matter of natural selection than authority. Good ideas are likely to survive no matter where they come from. Conversely, no amount of authority will make a bad idea into a good one.

As for flavors of awakening, individuals tend to change their teaching over time as they move through their own process. We teach what we know, and to a large extent, what is up for us at any given time. Similarly, yogis gravitate to the teachings that most resonate with them at the moment, making use of what they can from many different teachers, often circling back to someone with whom they have a personal relationship or a special affinity. It's a good system, I think, and is producing good results. The question of authority or legitimacy would be more relevant in a culture where a student is stuck with just one teacher throughout his or her life. In such a situation, it would be a tragedy if a student happened to end up with someone who had no insight or was a poor teacher. For us, though, it's easy; we can just vote with our feet. Ideas, methods, personalities, and choices abound.

"Can the sharing of awakening from teacher to student survive the death of the perfection ideal? "

Sometimes I think that the prophecy of "Maitreya" is actually just a clever way of pointing towards that. When we stop looking towards a mythical buddha and start learning from our spiritual friends, the age of enlightenment is upon us.

Does anyone know how I might get more information about waking up at the level of the gut? I think that's very interesting.

"Does anyone know how I might get more information about waking up at the level of the gut? I think that's very interesting. "

I wonder if the way to the gut is through the heart? Seems like when I do metta, something is holding itself back and that seems like a fear in the gut. Other times, the heart is so open that it burns through fear and there is a deep relaxing in the gut. Totally ancedotal, though -- I'm also curious what other info exists?

Anecdotal to support betawave's comment - I had a momentary emotional opening today that was strong energy of love and sadness in the heart and it did seem to move to a tight physical clenching in the gut. There was no clear resolution, but the energy did seem to move in that direction.

My experience is the way to the heart is through the gut (emotional center). Adyashantis The End of Your World talks about non abiding awakening - I awoke at 4th path and went back to sleep for six months I used his inquiry method by writing page after page digging into habits that didn't serve me, uncovering underlying truths. He says the awakened part of the mind is fearless in facing unawakened parts and that fact has driven my inquiry practice. If I maintain my daily sits and have that momentum on cushion I can create spaciousness within the mind, then work on softening the nervous systems in the gut then I go from head to gut and somehow pull the two into a synchronization of sorts, they both seem to "soften and open" even more, at that magical moment the heart (chakra?) opens and flows (technique from Elena Brown who is a yoga instructor). I am left w high levels of friendliness, compassion and wonder although these don't last for long they sure help imprint positive states throughout the body. We are all working towards abiding awakening, a permanent state of the higher human emotions, from what I gather.

This morning while meditating, my mind wandered to the subject of Angst and its relationship to the Mahasi path. It seems like the practice of noting progressively debunks the illusion that one sensation is able to perceive another sensation, that anything that arises in experience could possibly be me or be anything more than illusory and substanceless. Awakening is surrendering to this absence of central agency.

Awakening at an existential level seems different, though. It's more about seeing the groundlessness of it all, all at once. It's an instantaneous, total relinquishment of the whole enchilada. It's non-progressive. It just happens. It's not conceptual. There's no noting. The bottom just falls away.

Doing the Mahasi practice can put you in touch with that realization, but it doesn't seem to happen necessarily. Most people I know who do the Mahasi practice don't experience existential terror. And when and how I experience it on the path is variable (it doesn't always occur at the same ñana, and it can be deeply unpleasant or neutral). So I'm guessing it's related to the Mahasi path but is not identical with it.

And then I noted "thinking" and went back to following the breath.

By the way, Henk Barendregt ( www.cs.ru.nl/~henk/ ) disagrees with all this. He thinks the function of vipassana is to undo the "fundamental process": an existential terror which is covered up by ordinary experience but which is unconcealed and dissolved with vipassana. This idea is alluring (it's part of the reason I got into vipassana), but having completed two paths and even having experienced this terror along the path, I don't think the relationship between the two is as tight as he says. I think Adyashanti's description of three loci of awakening makes more sense (assuming he means the same thing by "existential".)

There are different flavors, facets, experiences. They all seem to be true.

I meant to add this earlier in the convo but was not online a lot. This is some notes I took on the Adyashanti heart/mind/gut stuff at some point last year, probably from one of his books or some of his videos - I don't remember the source. My own wording...

"Awakening is hard to sell right - what people expect is never what is found. The "seeking" is driven by Truth, but it tends to be seen in the form of fantasies. It's really about losing a lot of stuff, not finding anything. It doesn't sell well if you are honest about it, yet at the same time no one would ever trade it back.

Working through ones karma - part of the process after awakening. The process after awakening is more about things falling away, and not even realizing it sometimes until one day you see other people doing something and realize you don't do that anymore. It's not about realizations, but about a kind of gradual releasing of more and more stuff.

Pure vast clear conscious space, identity freed from thought - awakening in the mind.
Heart level - total intimacy with all things - all things are your own skin.
Gut level - existential sense of self, grasping, fear, constriction released.
People can even experience "I know this isn't true - I've experienced it - BUT - and that BUT shows where the blockage is.
All three (mind/heart/gut) often burst open at awakening, but then it can tend to settle in the mind and the others close up a bit. Or can be non-sequential. But then over time it does tend to release sequentially."

Thanks, gira.

Agreed. Well said!