How should one practice if the aim is to teach?

Thoughts? Required attainments? Scholarship? Lineage?

I know this was touched on in the dharma students bill of rights thread, but less directly. I'm not trying to generate a manifesto, just advice. I remember Ingram saying in MCTB somewhere that you should be at least 2nd path, but that sounds like a very low standard at this point.

I totally agree. My initial reaction after getting 1st path was. "I have to end up teaching this at some point." I always heard that 2nd path was the "standard" but after going through into the later parts of the path, there is no way I (personally) would start teaching until after 4th has matured. Now that is just me. There are a lot of people that have a very deep understanding of advanced practices in earlier stages. I say this because things like 2nd gear, mahamudra, and more advanced practices didn't even makes sense to me until later on. Obviously, everyone has their strengths and weaknesses, and a teacher can't answer all questions, but I would want to be equipped to answer some of the tough questions that become more clear in the later stages.

Do you believe you should study suttas?

"Do you believe you should study suttas?"

I guess that depends on how you want to teach and the type of student you would be taking on. Personally, I have never read a single sutta.

BTW. Just giving my thoughts. Maybe some actual teachers should chime in. I have no intention of teaching anytime soon, if ever. Just telling it from my perspective. I initially thought teaching would be something that I wanted to do, until I began uncovering more layers. Anyways, it is much more complicated than I initially thought

"BTW. Just giving my thoughts. Maybe some actual teachers should chime in. I have no intention of teaching anytime soon, if ever. Just telling it from my perspective. I initially thought teaching would be something that I wanted to do, until I began uncovering more layers. Anyways, it is much more complicated than I initially thought "

Yeah, that's pretty much my thinking right now. Maybe just getting to the finish line won't be enough. So, all you senseis, what's the curriculum?

someguy77,
Why do you want to teach? Be honest about it. The answer to that is of primary importance. Figure that out before you get into issues like how to teach, or how to practice in order to teach.

"someguy77,
Why do you want to teach? Be honest about it. The answer to that is of primary importance. Figure that out before you get into issues like how to teach, or how to practice in order to teach."

I don't know if I will necessarily. But it would seem natural. If I spend years cultivating a practice in solitude, it would be nice to one day be able to share it. And if I ever want to have a Sangha in real life, I will probably have to start it. So a desire for community is a big motivation. I might have a bit of a subversive impulse: I don't really like the culture where I live, so maybe I could change it a little with a positive contribution.

Also, I'm an acupuncturist. When I find limits on what I can do for people with acupuncture, it often seems to be a problem at least partly rooted in mental habits. So that is a natural progression.

The statement, "be honest about it," seems to suggest an assumption of unwholesome motivation. Maybe. Maybe I'm narcissistic and want attention. But that would be why I'm still unqualified. Meanwhile, I don't want to leave anything important out while I go through this training.

I think it depends on what you are teaching. If you are teaching in a specific tradition then there's a lot of stuff to teach that is about the tradition itself: history, famous people, beliefs, values, rules, customs, concepts, etc. You don't have to have a very deep personal practice to give a talk that covers the material from the scriptures and traditions. It's like a Catholic catechist helping students learn the basics of the belief system. You should know the tradition you are teaching in an intellectual way.

On the other hand if you are specifically teaching serious students who are well along in their meditation practice you should be more advanced than your students. This can be combined with the above (if you are within a specific tradition) or the above can be fairly irrelevant (if you are eclectic/independent/pragmatic and it doesn't matter if you can quote your chapters and verses from the sutras).

When I teach what I find is that people are struggling with familiar things that I recognize from my own struggles and have seen repeated among my peers. I can sometimes help nudge them through the obstacles by helping them find the answers themselves. It's not about lecturing on concepts, but about pointing to stuff they are overlooking. They have to make the discoveries themselves for them to really sink in. Similar guidance can be found on good forums like this one, where peers can offer support to each other. I don't teach in a specific tradition, but I didn't start teaching until about a year after my teacher asked me to.

My 2 cents, anyway.

"The statement, "be honest about it," seems to suggest an assumption of unwholesome motivation."

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest or insinuate that. I was just trying to suggest being really clear about why you want or may want to teach. If you responded that it was to help others (with their practice or otherwise in general), then it might become clear that you don't necessarily have to take on a set teaching role in order to accomplish that.

I'm not sure how that fits in with your motivation to start a community or sangha. Perhaps in that regard it may be necessary to play more of a teacher role for a commnity to take shape. Perhaps not.

Also, if you're uncertain whether you will want to teach eventually, I would just let it go, and not focus on it at this point. Maybe you will teach eventually, maybe not. Better to just practice, continue on with exploring and deepen your insights. That should be the aim of your practice. Right now your aim isn't to teach (you don't know if you will or not), so it would be silly to organize your practice around some faraway hypothetical and call it your aim, when you don't know if it is or not.

If teaching becomes clear at some point in the future, I imagine you will be able to find the appropriate resources to help you in becoming a good teacher.

A former teacher of mine said that the most qualified teacher's are those who have no desire to teach. But students appear ask questions and teaching start happening. Extreme example Ramana Maharishi in his cave not speaking for 10+ something years. but people kept appearing and he opened his mouth and words of truth came.

Even Buddhas first thought after his enlightenment , if I remember correctly was, "how could I teach/tell anyone about this?

My own experience is that I feel like a liar if I try to teach about this probably because I haven't gone deep enough. But if the day comes when words of truth start flowing spontaneously then I don't think there is a choice to be made about it.

"My own experience is that I feel like a liar if I try to teach about this probably because I haven't gone deep enough. But if the day comes when words of truth start flowing spontaneously then I don't think there is a choice to be made about it."

Just as an example, Jyet, most beginners spend much of their time trying to motivate themselves to keep up a regular practice and choose and stick to a technique. This can take ages. It's super helpful for them to hear encouragement from people who have been meditating for longer than they have. That encouragement can range from admitting that you still find it challenging to stick to your practice, to telling them that after six months or so it gets easier to keep to the routine, or describing for the hundredth time how noting works. Not all teaching needs to be the spouting of profound insights into the nature of enlightenment. The practical concerns of daily practice are enormously important, and most of what people need until advanced stages is just encouragement that a) they can do it b) others have done it c) they aren't going crazy when strange things happen d) it's challenging but fun, and so on.

This is a good discussion. Here are a few things I've picked up along the way, I hope they help:

1. Practice ethics first. It's hard to transmit something useful while f*cking students.
2. Be very willing to say "I don't know".
3. Meet people where they are. Most people are pretty wounded and just need to be loved until they are functional.
4. Anybody who is willing to teach is probably an arrogant bastard. I include myself in this. This is not necessarily a defect. But it's good not to come off like an assh*le.
5. Try not to frame experiences as attainments, at least for the vast majority of people. I don't include pragmatic dharma people in this since that's part of the culture and you won't get crucified for being wrong.
6. Be willing to tell people what they don't want to hear.
7. Get ready to deal with co-dependency issues and projection.
8. Be grateful to the people who ask for your help. If anybody benefits from your experiences - no matter how painful those experiences were, then they had meaning.
9. Be prepared to look like an ass and grow up in public.
10. Ideally, don't have students. That way you don't have to be a teacher. I think it's much better to just have friends that want something you have and are willing to do what you did to get it.

"Not all teaching needs to be the spouting of profound insights into the nature of enlightenment. The practical concerns of daily practice are enormously important, and most of what people need until advanced stages is just encouragement that a) they can do it b) others have done it c) they aren't going crazy when strange things happen d) it's challenging but fun, and so on. "

Boy, this sounds familiar right about now

We are all teaching each other here, right now!

"Boy, this sounds familiar right about now

We are all teaching each other here, right now!"

i think the idea of teacher often carries images of some mystical guru in a cave, but there are many kinds of teachers and the right style for a given student's needs depends on many things, including the student's preferences and areas of interest.

I'd like to add a number 11 to Owen's very nice list:

11. Be willing to admit you don't know.

Oh, and a number 12:

12. Be willing to tell a potential student, friend or stranger that you are not the right teacher for them and that they should see someone else.

"This is a good discussion. Here are a few things I've picked up along the way, I hope they help:

1. Practice ethics first. It's hard to transmit something useful while f*cking students.
2. Be very willing to say "I don't know".
3. Meet people where they are. Most people are pretty wounded and just need to be loved until they are functional.
4. Anybody who is willing to teach is probably an arrogant bastard. I include myself in this. This is not necessarily a defect. But it's good not to come off like an assh*le.
5. Try not to frame experiences as attainments, at least for the vast majority of people. I don't include pragmatic dharma people in this since that's part of the culture and you won't get crucified for being wrong.
6. Be willing to tell people what they don't want to hear.
7. Get ready to deal with co-dependency issues and projection.
8. Be grateful to the people who ask for your help. If anybody benefits from your experiences - no matter how painful those experiences were, then they had meaning.
9. Be prepared to look like an ass and grow up in public.
10. Ideally, don't have students. That way you don't have to be a teacher. I think it's much better to just have friends that want something you have and are willing to do what you did to get it.



"

Thanks, Owen. Number 10 brings me back to an old notion, which nicely addresses the community issue that John teased out, and that is a group that would function a lot like the online community here. Non-hierarchical.

All these teaching tips are great, though slightly different than the question of training to teach. I gather that is an organic process. Works for me. Maybe I should find out what a 'sutta' is though.

"10. Ideally, don't have students. That way you don't have to be a teacher. I think it's much better to just have friends that want something you have and are willing to do what you did to get it."

This probably works best for those who are earning a living through other means and are not interested in earning a livelihood from giving time and advice. But ideally, I like this route for myself. One can avoid many of the possible pitfalls/obstacles (to giving advice as well as personal progress) of having the 'teacher' mantle in my experience. The kalyana mitta ideal gels with me. www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca.../kalyanamittata.html

Interesting thread to me, because most of the time I've been working with KFD, I've been in the frame of mind that I wasn't interested in teaching dharma. Because of that, I've paid less attention to some aspects of detail than I might have otherwise -- refining fruition practice and exploring fruition "doors" for example, or really digging into "review" in a rigorous fashion. Or even reading/participating in discussions here in more detail.

I remember MCTB comment about teaching post 2nd-path. When I reached ostensible 2nd-path, I certainly didn't feel like I was mature enough in realisation to teach.

(Though I teach for a living in a different context. It is common for teachers to not realise how much they know until they start teaching, and suddenly they realise just how much they have to offer.)

Now that I am pretty confident I am past third path, I'm still not willing to teach, but I've started thinking about it a lot more. Whether 4th path is a point where I start to say, "OK, yes, I'm going to teach" remains to be seen.

Would my lack of attention to some of the details of KFD practice be a problem then? Well, if the comments above about what most meditators needing is true, than probably not.

I've sometimes wondered if my inclination to skepticism and 'maybe' type answers and 'I really don't know' or 'I'm not sure' answers would make me a poor teacher. Particularly since I would be inclined to tell people from the get-go that the path can be rough going, and somehow I have a hard time telling people to dive into something that will trounce them with dukkha, even though I've made the choice to prevail through that myself.

I suppose all of this would make someone like me an excellent teacher for some and not so excellent for others.

"I've paid less attention to some aspects of detail than I might have otherwise -- refining fruition practice and exploring fruition "doors" for example, or really digging into "review" in a rigorous fashion. "

This is a pretty hazy subject for me. Anybody have good links about practicing in review?

@modalnode: Teaching is quite often more about listening than about telling. It's better to say "I don't know" than it is to fake knowing something you don't know. I consider that a bright line that, if crossed, compromises the teacher's trustworthiness and the student's practice. I like to think of teaching as coaching. I'm not smart enough to tell people what to do but I can explain things reasonably well and I can relate to a lot of the milestones in their practice.