Quick Pureland Jhana Poll

Hey Everybody,
I'd like to get a sense of how many of the folks here have reliable access to the PL jhanas. If you fit this, can you reply in this thread?
Just curious.

I do thanks to your podcast. Just tuned in to you guys and rode along. Have had no desire to do them the last weeks though. But maybe I experiment tomorrow morning and get back to this thread. Should really go to bed now.

I do. I have not done any jhana practice in the last month or so but when I do, I end up there. I however, cannot access them on demand, it takes me a great deal of concentration to get there.

Raises hand.

How about you, Owen?

"
Raises hand.

How about you, Owen?



"

Yep. Been working with a friend of mine on a bit of a project involving them. Will tell more soonish once I get a few more bits worked out.
I'm curious if there are more than a dozen or so folks I can find who have a good feel for them.

"Yep. Been working with a friend of mine on a bit of a project involving them. Will tell more soonish once I get a few more bits worked out.
I'm curious if there are more than a dozen or so folks I can find who have a good feel for them."

I can sill fabricate them a will.

Yep.

I used to have an easy access, but it has been almost a year since I did any type of jhana practice.

They where still there but the radio signal wasn't very strong and they didn't leave me feeling as satisfied as they used to when I did them everyday. Actually after ending in 13th I just sat for the last 15 min and towards the end a deep dissatisfaction came up, This is probably some phase I'm in though as this nagging discontentment have been with me off cushion lately.

Yep,
I first came upon them a half year after 2:nd path with help from Villum and then Antero.
After the blurryness of 8:th they appear brighter, more calm and stable.
They are the most restful concentration state IMO, even though the body comes back online a bit more than previous jhanas.
The shifts 1-5 do happen sometimes but i do not recognize them clearly enough to be sure.

i used to, but haven't had any inclination to do jhana practice for a while now.

Ok, so we have around 10. Cool.
I've been chatting with a friend of mine (student of Ayya Khema) who has been researching into the 31 planes of existence and some of the works of the Christian mystics.
He also discovered the PL jhanas himself about a decade ago, but in a slightly different order than Kenneth. Normally, I believe he did them after J8, but recently he noticed that it seemed to fit better and line up more with the descriptions of St. Theresa if he did the following progression. He walked me through it a week or so ago.

J1: dig into the piti or bliss
J2: relax into the joy that comes from the bliss
J3: ease into the contentment that underlies the joy
J4: ride the joy into the bottom of the "well" until there is almost no observer
PL3: notice the subtle body and 3rd eye chakra and get absorbed into it
PL2: move up from the 3rd eye to the crown
PL4: crown opens into a "bowl" at the top of the head. feeling a slight upward pull
PL5: moving up into a vortex of pure knowing awareness.
PL1: connect again with the crown in a full circuit
J5: transition from the crown into infinite space
J6: from infinite space into infinite consciousness
J7: from infinite consciousness into nothingness
J8: J8
A of F: attainment of fruition. incline the mind to the moment following the your last path moment. (this is close to or is a pce)
or
NS

I noticed when we did this that PL5 using this transition pattern was particularly good for resolutions (metta) or siddhis.
This path seems a lot cleaner than the traditional jhana progression. It eliminates the abrupt changeover from rupa to arupa.
It also is very nice on exit.

I also recommend sitting for about 20 minutes in access concentration before doing this.

Can you folks try it out and let me know what you find?

Interesting. Will try this out.

One question though... "PL1: connect again with the crown in a full circuit"
PL1 for me is 3rd eye centered. Full circuit at the crown sounds like PL4?

"Interesting. Will try this out.

One question though... "PL1: connect again with the crown in a full circuit"
PL1 for me is 3rd eye centered. Full circuit at the crown sounds like PL4?"

I get a bit of a merging of both crown and third eye when I try this. Whichever is predominant for you. I'm curious how it looks for others.

"Interesting. Will try this out.

One question though... "PL1: connect again with the crown in a full circuit"
PL1 for me is 3rd eye centered. Full circuit at the crown sounds like PL4?"

PL1 is this way for me too. From 8th my focus immediately goes to the 3rd eye and vibrations start from my lower body and up and out like my head comes out of something. My whole body feels like I am floating. I can sometimes get rapid eye movement as well. Will try out tonight. I haven't tried for this stuff in about a month but it still comes on its own on occasion when concentrations is really good.

"
J7: from infinite consciousness into nothingness
J8: J8
A of F: attainment of fruition. incline the mind to the moment following the your last path moment. (this is close to or is a pce)
or
NS

"

I am leaning towards being open to the idea that there is no 'set' way to fabricate these fabrications of mind. One is introduced and taught about their existence as states of mind in a certain order and this conditions how they will arise. . This then sets up the mind to fabricate them in that order. Cause and effect, though it might seem like they arise like that naturally, I think the conditioning is already in place. Perhaps. I'm open to this idea these days due to seeing how well fabricating can be mastered.

An experiment: simply consider and resolve that it is only conditioning that results in an 'order' (such as memory of hearing about or listening to someone else describe their order or the 'order' being accepted on mass by the buddhist or pragmatic dharma world). Write down a random order put it in front of you or drop the concept of 'order' altogether then do whatever practice sees them arise 'naturally'. No doubt, the stronger memory may win out still, but perhaps it wont. In my experience it can change with re-conditioning. The more malleable and pliant the mind, the more this conditioning conditions mastery of what arises and in which order.

Following Owen's instructions conditions the way the mind fabricates and in what order. It worked like that for myself and quite surprising that your friend talks of it resulting in the PCE (or what Tommy and myself are now calling BoEL: Back of eyelids, as in perception changes to just seen in the seen when the back of the eye lids are all that is experienced (and other senses like so). I also pointed to this: thehamiltonproject.blogspot.com.au/2011/...ike-approach-to.html

"Yes" to the reliable PL jhanas question. As per script, only became truly reliable after what was probably 3rd path, though were certainly encountered prior.

"I've wondered about this, too" to the idea that suggestion/maleability could lead to a different order. But haven't pushed the question.

Sometimes when my concentration isn't strong, or I swap to a different kind of investigation than one that focuses on the J's, I've sometimes sensed that maybe things have unfolded in a different order/character than what Kenneth lays out. But of course, I'm not paying enough of the right kind of attention to tell if that was so.

Haven't given the above suggested order a try, yet.

It has been a while since i did them in connection to ordinary jhana. Unless I'm confusing the weak things i get on a quick test, i still have them.
Sounds interesting

The jhanas are a systematic process for letting go - specifically letting go of the separate self, component be component. What's intriguing about the sequence that Owen lays out is that it follows a path of least resistance, which potentially creates an efficiency and "momentum" that may lead to deeper levels of absorption. For instance, the transition from J1 to J2 illustrates the principle. In dropping the piti of J1, what is left is an unmistakable sukka, which then becomes the object of concentration in J2. This process continues through the fine material jhanas which progress like an "opioid elevator down" to the absolute stillness of J4. From here, the PL jhanas then follow an ever ascending progression. This culminates in the last PL jhana (more commonly known as PL 1) where the 3rd eye rises up through the crown and the fountain of pure awareness, upwards to infinity. From here, the transition to J5 (infinite space) is relatively trivial, as the expansion into two further dimensions is easily allowed.

It is interesting to note the seemingly odd names that are specified in the Thirty One planes of Existence, and their mapping to this particual sequence. For example, PL 4 (pure awareness) maps to "(26) Clear Sighted Devas". What could be more clear sighted than pure awareness? Also, "(24) Untroubled Devas" lines up with PL 2 (restfulness) and the source documents say that "lower realms long for their company". It's easy to see a connection between restful peace and being untroubled, which most humans long for. Furthermore, "(27) Peerless Devas" are refered to as "the highest extreme of the universe". This is perfectly in keeping with the experience of infinity verticality (PL 1).

(To be continued)

As Owen mentions, there is evidence that 16th century Christian mystics praticed a similar arc. The Francisan monk, Francisco de Osuna, who served as an inspiration to Theresa D'Avila, wrote the classic text entitled "The Third Spiritual Alphabet". In it, he detailed his contemplative prayer practice. He characterizes the approach by saying that "In order to union with God, one goes inward, upward and outward". This could be rephrased, in Buddhist terminology, to say "In order to eradicate the separate self, become absorbed in the fine material jhanas, then the pure land jhanas and then the immaterial jhanas".

Having said all this, the most inportant thing is not the particular sequence, but rather doing the full set of jhanas (including the pure lands). They are ripe with insight regarding the nature of the separate self and final liberation.

Finally, a follow up question. "The Thirty One Levels fo Existence" states that the "Pure Abodes" are accesssible only to non-returners and arahants. The source documents, however, are explicit that they are available to those who have "partial eradication of lust and ill will". This is the classic definition of the once-returner. There is evidence that once-returners can access the pure land jhanas. Does anyone know of any evidence of accessing these states, pre-second path?

"Hey Everybody,
I'd like to get a sense of how many of the folks here have reliable access to the PL jhanas. If you fit this, can you reply in this thread?
Just curious."

Last I checked I had reliable access to these as well, though I've mainly been doing a Vietnamese Zen meditation - sort of Soto style stuff lately. I found this stuff with Kenneth's help and I find it fascinating that one actually has the option of experiencing these in a different order than I found them. I'm curious as to Kenneth's thoughts on that.