Mahamudra and "fake it til you make it"

Sounds like you've been generally aimed right but have gotten "hung up" like a twig in a stream that catches against a rock. Just take a fresh start from right now, get some fresh guidance from people who've been through this stuff (many on this forum are very experienced) or a personal teacher, and take it one moment at a time. The rest will sort itself out.

In my experience (posted yesterday) one needs to confound the mind a bit at first to really provoke the real dropping away required of non-dual Awareness. It has to get out of the routine of thinking, planning, mapping, and so on. I think Rinzai Zen has this part right -- give someone a good koan and make them soak in it, beyond the normal problem-solving inclinations of mind and deep, deep, deep into the sub-conscious, innate, stillness below the surface. This confounding may be what allows the mind to just fall away (mind, not Mind). Also, there are versions of awareness: awareness (everyday variety which everyone can rest in) and Awareness (IS).

So, monk, every time you sit and and cogitate you are giving mind an "out" with which to defeat your objective.

What do you think?

Just a few thoughts..... no pun intended.

"What do you think?"

Thank you. I think what you say makes sense. Are you suggesting a specific approach, or just relaxing all the thinking in general?

I'd love to find a way to confound my mind in the way you describe. Presumably it's finding the right key to fit the lock that's the hard part.

As for generally relaxing the mind, I think I'm doing that for most of the day now. There's still this sense of something to get, though, and there's a background process trying to figure out how to "get it." As I just mentioned in the other thread, reminding myself that I'm not accountable to anyone or anything may be what I need.

Why not find a Rinzai master nearby? Or buy/borrow/Google a collection of Zen Koans? I think you may thereby find the one that speaks to you in a unique way. I do think the conundrum has to be "tuned" to you, specifically. Those Titmuss podcasts were like that for me, for example. My silly mind latched onto them and confounded itself very thoroughly, and in short order.

I would be looking to do two things - yes, relax, as suggested, then find that one koan or conundrum to percolate on, all the time, beneath the surface.

There is nothing to get.

Nothing to "get."

Getting is thinking.

Thank you, that is great advice. I will get a book of koans now.

One thought (although perhaps I shouldn't be doing this to myself) about the two levels of awareness you mentioned. Right now I'm listening to Adyashanti. He points out to listeners that may not have realized it, that there is this fundamental, unchanging, sense of presence underlying their experience. When I refer to resting in awareness, it is this aspect that I've recognized for as long as I can remember. It seems clear that all experiences are ephemeral and insubstantial, appearing and self-liberating in this "space." And yet it seems like a "subject." I suspect this is different from the experience of awareness for the "uninitiated," and yet it is also different from the duality-free awareness of rigpa.

Perhaps all I'm describing is "the witness," and perhaps it fits your first definition of awareness instead of your second. I think it was my hope that resting as the witness, but without explicitly engaging the "witnessing" faculty, would qualify as "resting in the natural state." Or, at least, that this would qualify as FITYMI. So I guess I'm still confused about what FITYMI is if not that. But if indeed it is not, I will stop worrying about why or how to get there. Resting in whatever "my" level of awareness is can't be so bad

Edit: errr... that was a poor description. Maybe rather, being a witness without trying to stand apart.

If you detect anything that is subject, then by definition there is object, and thus duality. Awareness (the capital A kind) is non-dual. You seem confused about the basics of this, but in my experience that is very common until there is non-dual realization.

"
If you detect anything that is subject, then by definition there is object, and thus duality. Awareness (the capital A kind) is non-dual. You seem confused about the basics of this, but in my experience that is very common until there is non-dual realization.

"

Thanks, it doesn't get much clearer than that

Coming back to the purpose of this thread, it seems like this would be a fine time to ask if you can help me understand the FITYMI idea. I interpreted it as fake non-duality until it becomes your experience, but it appears that's not it. What would you say is being faked in the quote? Adyashanti is referenced in the interview, and if his students have mostly recognized rigpa, that's fascinating and useful news to me.

One thing I was surprised to hear from a Mahamudra student on a Mahamudra forum was that rigpa can be recognized instantly by anyone who has had recognition via a pointing out. This is what is meant by "short moments, many times" (a common Dzogchen idea): recognize rigpa, then rest in it. You seem to be in the know, so perhaps you have some idea if that ability is shared by most folks here who have recognized rigpa?

I enjoy this subject and am currently trying to investigate it myself.

It has been said before, and I agree: The other two gears that are part of Kenneth's system are a great help to incline the mind better towards resting in the 3rd gear.

In my experience 3rd gear seems to happen in the strangest of times, and very rarely, if not at all, when I am looking for it. However, it does seem that the 3rd gear practices that I do help with the spontaneous occurrence of this non-dual awarness.

Consider the Six Words of Advice from Tilopa:
Let go of what has passed.
Let go of what may come.
Let go of what is happening now.
Don't try to figure anything out.
Don't try to make anything happen.
Relax, right now, and rest.

I give this an honest "try" from time to time. Perhaps, I am faking it till I make it (mostly I don't make it). There is a sense, though, that I am putting money in the bank on a future investment. Then, when I am not even trying for it, moments occur when the subject/object separation disappears. Its funny, because you would expect yourself to be excited that you did it, but during these moments there is a quality of mind that is appreciative but not feeling that it is doing anything special. Later, when it has passed, I am excited and further motivated to take the above advice as often as I can and truly "rest". Most of the time it doesn't make any real sense, and I just do it to do it. But I wouldn't keep doing it if I didn't believe that it contributes to the process somehow.

What I would like to know is when and how these brief moments accumulate enough for a more permanent state of this awareness. This is part of my ongoing investigation/practice. My mind is still very muddy in its understanding but much improved from one year ago.

Hope this was in context to your thread!

Yes, thank you, that is relevant to the thread. I also follow Tilopa's Six Words. in fact it forms (formed?) the basis of my practice until recently. This was also my interpretation of FITYMI as I described in my last post: attempt to rest without effort, which should reveal a glimpse of non-duality from time to time.

I couldn't tell from Kenneth's answer whether this is what he meant though. And other MM practitioners seem to think this may be fruitless without a first glimpse of rigpa.

So I'd really like to hear the opinions of some experienced people (ideally Kenneth himself!) on both counts.

1: Does FITYMI mean "faking" resting in a non-dual state so that it may manifest, or something else? (Basically, resting without hope and fear)
2: Is such resting a useful means to "approach" the non-dual state? (As you say, "money in the bank")

(If the answer to question 1 is that this IS what FITYMI is, then of course 2 is answered. And one reason I may not get an answer to this is that knowing that you're doing FITYMI may actually be counterproductive, since it introduces hope and fear. Besides, regardless of the answers, could it really hurt to follow the Six Words at any point?)

"Yes, thank you, that is relevant to the thread. I also follow Tilopa's Six Words. in fact it forms (formed?) the basis of my practice until recently. This was also my interpretation of FITYMI as I described in my last post: attempt to rest without effort, which should reveal a glimpse of non-duality from time to time.

I couldn't tell from Kenneth's answer whether this is what he meant though. And other MM practitioners seem to think this may be fruitless without a first glimpse of rigpa.

So I'd really like to hear the opinions of some experienced people (ideally Kenneth himself!) on both counts.

1: Does FITYMI mean "faking" resting in a non-dual state so that it may manifest, or something else? (Basically, resting without hope and fear)
2: Is such resting a useful means to "approach" the non-dual state? (As you say, "money in the bank")

(If the answer to question 1 is that this IS what FITYMI is, then of course 2 is answered. And one reason I may not get an answer to this is that knowing that you're doing FITYMI may actually be counterproductive, since it introduces hope and fear. Besides, regardless of the answers, could it really hurt to follow the Six Words at any point?)"

My vote is FITYMI means resting without (to the best of your ability) grasping and aversion (hope and fear). (Just noticing in the moment if such distractions arise without trying to stifle them, because stifling them is just more aversion...)

And yes, such a practice is always money in the bank.

And I don't think knowing that you are doing FITYMI is counterproductive - I've "pretended to be the kind of person who can just sit here and accept everything just as it is" and so on many a time.

You don't need to make it so complicated.

To quote from another list 'Many years ago I had some excellent Japanese martial arts training by Japanese instructors that could barely speak English. Whenever anyone would ask a question their answer would always be "practice will bring you the answer." I started off with Kenneth's Ships in the Harbor technique with another person ping ponging back and forth with me. With this I started to get glimpses of a still, empty mind. Then I added on to my practice Shinzen Young's Do Nothing technique. See . Since then I have read books on mahamudra (the best for me was Clarifying the Natural Mind) and included Adyashanti's books and Ken McLeod's Wake Up to Your Life. I also listened to Ken McLeod's recordings of his leading mm retreats, All this was interesting but didn't really add anything to my just doing the practice. By the way I just ran across this video of Bentinho that is useful to me:

jack

"Coming back to the purpose of this thread, it seems like this would be a fine time to ask if you can help me understand the FITYMI idea. I interpreted it as fake non-duality until it becomes your experience, but it appears that's not it. What would you say is being faked in the quote? Adyashanti is referenced in the interview, and if his students have mostly recognized rigpa, that's fascinating and useful news to me.

One thing I was surprised to hear from a Mahamudra student on a Mahamudra forum was that rigpa can be recognized instantly by anyone who has had recognition via a pointing out. This is what is meant by "short moments, many times" (a common Dzogchen idea): recognize rigpa, then rest in it. You seem to be in the know, so perhaps you have some idea if that ability is shared by most folks here who have recognized rigpa?"


Monk, I'm struggling with how to respond to this because the conversation keeps coming back to thinking, pondering, analyzing, manipulating, understanding, conceptualizing, and so on. You seem to be on a continuous loop of intellectual curiosity and searching for something logically satisfying that will pop you into non-dual awareness. So... my best advice may sound harsh but it's this -- stop. Your never ending search is getting directly in the way of your potential realization. You are indeed making this way too complicated.

As for FITYMA, I didn't do it I so I have no expertise in it or anything to contribute. It might work. It might not. But, at this point you need to pick something and, to quote Nike, "Just Do It!"

"You are indeed making this way too complicated.
...
As for FITYMA, I didn't do it I so I have no expertise in it or anything to contribute. It might work. It might not."

Yes, I really have been. I think I've been confusing myself by mixing traditions. Here, 3rd Gear practice really is "just let it be." Nothing could be simpler. Meanwhile, over at the MM forum:

Me: "Does this mean that someone who has recognized rigpa can evoke its recognition instantly thereafter?"
Him: "Yes." (And *then* one "just lets it be.")

I've been trying to reconcile the two descriptions, but I think that's not fruitful. If I'm not going to find myself a Mahamudra guru, there's no point in trying to practice their way. I'll use what tools I do have, including many suggestions here (thank you, all).

"
Monk, I'm struggling with how to respond to this because the conversation keeps coming back to thinking, pondering, analyzing, manipulating, understanding, conceptualizing, and so on. You seem to be on a continuous loop of intellectual curiosity and searching for something logically satisfying that will pop you into non-dual awareness. So... my best advice may sound harsh but it's this -- stop. Your never ending search is getting directly in the way of your potential realization. You are indeed making this way too complicated.

As for FITYMA, I didn't do it I so I have no expertise in it or anything to contribute. It might work. It might not. But, at this point you need to pick something and, to quote Nike, "Just Do It!"

"

I may need to steal this and tuck it away to use as an autoresponse for the magnitude of threads like this I see on some other forums lately. Nothing wrong with these excellent questions, but they don't lead to any true realization.

Good one Chris.

Hi!

I think a useful way to conceptualize the way the FITYMI approach can work is to conceptualize experience as happening on a continuum between two poles. At one end, we are totally absorbed in our imaginary (fake ) version of our life that is characterized by duality and suffering. At the other end there is no absorption in such imaginings, and thus the openness, clarity and seamlessness of experience is obvious, even including thoughts of separateness, which themselves are only ever ownerless experiences, vivid, open and complete. So there's nothing to 'make' cause the fake is fake

A cool benefit of such a conceptualization is it avoids reinforcing the imaginary duality by explicitly saying: every experience is *already occurring as a seamless openness* but some (many, most...) experiences also involve *the unquestioned belief in duality, fragmentation, separateness*.

So the thing isn't to DO something to change dualistic experience into nondual experience. The thing is to combine a steady, thorough and progressively deepening *inquiry* into the nature of present experience with the steady, thorough and progressively deepening *relaxation* of the tensions in our bodyminds that arise in the wake of the *belief in imaginary duality*.

Then our explicit experiencing naturally trends in the direction of explicitly open-ended completeness, which it already is, but which is often unappreciated (only implicit) due to unquestioned belief in imaginary versions of life characterized by imaginary subjects, objects, and reactive emotions!

So sit comfortably, relax, and investigate this moment right here. Investigate the sense that experience is dualistic. What is duality? Is there actually such a thing? Ask your experience, and listen carefully to the answers, listen deeply for the truth of your experience right here. Don't settle for opinions.

"So sit comfortably, relax, and investigate this moment right here. Investigate the sense that experience is dualistic. What is duality? Is there actually such a thing? Ask your experience, and listen carefully to the answers, listen deeply for the truth of your experience right here. Don't settle for opinions. "

Perhaps with the caveat that if you have a tendency to overanalyze and think too much, keep in mind that "investigating this moment" doesn't mean sitting there having an internal verbal chit chat with yourself about it. The bit about listening "for the truth of your experience right here" in "this moment right now" is important and easy to overlook if you are overexcited about playing inner trial lawyer.

lol yup.

in which case I'd advise some brisk physical activity, enough to help mind relax and quiet down, followed by more sitting

Awesome post, jhsaintonge! (And thanks for the followup, giragirasol).

Indeed on my little retreat this approach has suited me very well, and I'm making progress. Hearing more votes to proceed in this way makes me happy.

Some experiences seem to already be partially non-dual: when I listen to music, there's no music and there's no listener of music. There's just experience. I still harbor a fascinated curiosity about what the experience of timelessness might be like -- what would music sound like without time? Of course, maybe I'll find this out for myself at some point.

As for Mahamudra, I will file away my burning question (that was the original purpose of this thread!) for now. I suppose it doesn't matter if Tilopa's Six Words were meant for those Mahamudra badasses, who can supposedly evoke rigpa at will and "just let it be" in that. The approaches given here seem to be fine alternatives. (And perhaps some day, after recognizing rigpa, my dozens of MM/Dzogchen books will become useful again )

Monk, I come from the Christian tradition but I'm dealing with the exact same thing you are.

"Monk, I'm struggling with how to respond to this because the conversation keeps coming back to thinking, pondering, analyzing, manipulating, understanding, conceptualizing, and so on. You seem to be on a continuous loop of intellectual curiosity and searching for something logically satisfying that will pop you into non-dual awareness. So... my best advice may sound harsh but it's this -- stop. Your never ending search is getting directly in the way of your potential realization. You are indeed making this way too complicated."

This x1000. Someone gave me the words "Stop chasing the mirage." I too, like you am waiting for something to "pop" I'm resting and waiting for a moment of total surrender into the absolute. It's bizarre because like what's already been mentioned, I know that what I'm looking for already is, but how? How can this be it? Then comes the game of intellectualizing and trying to see how I'm not seeing it and its all endless.

"So sit comfortably, relax, and investigate this moment right here. Investigate the sense that experience is dualistic. What is duality? Is there actually such a thing? Ask your experience, and listen carefully to the answers, listen deeply for the truth of your experience right here. Don't settle for opinions"

This is what really resonates with me, this is what I really need to sit down and do. I've just become so comfortable with the expectations I have of what ought to happen. There's a lot of friction from grasping and aversion whenever I start inquiring too deeply.

Yes! I like it. Actually I just came upon an very apropos quote from innerrave.org:

"If we find that the attempt to remain in contact with basic goodness becomes a "thing", the best approach is to forget about it for a while. Freshness will find us again all by itself."

Indeed when I stop chasing, it comes and finds me! At that point I question it again. I think what I've been trying to do here is understand a few things that will help me put an end to a very specific question that seems to plague me: basically, is the "kind of resting" I'm doing the "right kind" of resting? (That one is silly; there are not two kinds of "letting it be"). And: have I "seen enough" that this resting will see me through?

See, the Dzogchen / MM books seem to suggest that only after some particular recognition of awareness it becomes fruitful to "just let it be." And as you may have gleaned from this thread, I feel like I'm caught in this limbo: my mind has very little similarity to a non-practitioner's, who has no idea what awareness is and is caught up in mind wandering and distraction; but it's also not one that has recognized rigpa even once.

So: only forward! When I relax and stop chasing, a fairly blissful nonjudgmental awareness finds its way back to me like a puppy dog. Even if it doesn't lead me to a profound recognition of rigpa, it's a helluva lot better than all this chasing!

" When I relax and stop chasing, a fairly blissful nonjudgmental awareness finds its way back to me like a puppy dog. Even if it doesn't lead me to a profound recognition of rigpa, it's a helluva lot better than all this chasing!"

There's a level of trust in the process needed. Accept that your experience right now, if you stop fussing and just sit and rest in this moment as it is, is "fairly blissful nonjudgemental awareness." Accept that it may be on another day something else (tension, sleepiness, mental busy-ness, whatever). The only progress comes from paying full attention to what's spontaneously offered in this moment. The more you can do that off the cushion, too, the more open you become to allowing the process to play out as it naturally wants to.

One can even think of the distraction into doubtful intellectualizing as a kind of Mara-like demon, trying to draw you away from progress in your practice. For some people that kind of perspective helps motivate commitment to discard the attention to the intellectualizing and refocus on practice with determination.

"One can even think of the distraction into doubtful intellectualizing as a kind of Mara-like demon,"

Yeah, that seems to really nail it. The simple bliss I mentioned seems to accompany and underlie all other states, including tension, sleepiness, busy-ness, etc. Not always, of course, which is when I "fall out of it." For about a year (in 2010) I had a great run in which everything felt fairly perfect as it was. Then I started trying to share it, which brought about lots of intellectualizing. I recently came across this quote:

"Tulku Urgyen used to say that having some recognition of rigpa is like having a candle in your hand, but if you have not stabilized that and you try to pass it on, you will hand the candle over to someone else and end up in darkness yourself."

I remember some days really fighting to find good words to describe the state to others. After a few months of this, the "state" vanished. It's probably not too dissimilar from what's happening now, but instead of me trying to explain it I'm trying to have it explained.

"The only progress comes from paying full attention to what's spontaneously offered in this moment."

This one has tripped me up in the past, because my direction of attention and holding onto awareness was a contrivance. I'm re-learning how to release both completely (and "letting them drive" so to speak, only taking a hold of attention when I want to investigate).

"There's a level of trust in the process needed."

And, btw, that trust is being deepened by this very thread. Often it is said in Dzogchen that one can never recognize or stabilize rigpa without direct transmission and guidance from a living lineage master. Well, I've never had such a thing (unless you count the online direct transmission I received from Namkhai Norbu -- and some people say they recognized rigpa there), and I may not get that chance soon. As I mentioned, it's also said that after this point, resting in the natural state actually becomes worthwhile.

So basically, I wanted to make sure that "just resting" still made sense. I see that it really does. As I go about my day, not changing even a hair tip about my experience, but allowing my natural awareness to gently carry me along, I occasionally note "wait, really, THIS is the most profound practice I could be doing right now? This must be a joke. It's way too easy." I'm sure I'm not the first person to think that

Hi monktastic!

Your enthusiasm is refreshing. I can relate to you wanting to have certainty about third gear. But I'm sure you'll agree that certainty will never come intellectually, but only experientially...

It has been my experience that I didn't start really having clarity and certainty about rigpa until after I had experiential realization into anatta / emptiness / non-duality and that was after first path for me. It's been over a year since then, and I've found that when one starts to really perfect samadhi, there will be a sort of clear seeing that arises when there is only subtle fabrication arising, and from the perspective of "mind" it is clearly seen that the nature of the fabrication / appearances / is clear light mind itself.

That recognition of clear light mind / luminous emptiness mind .. becomes more and more frequent and it becomes more natural to simply ease up and rest with that. If this is not accessible to you now and you are frequently having doubt and uncertainty, then I recommend you switch gears to 1st / 2nd gear practices. If you can do 2nd gear then do that, if not then vipassana noting is an excellent, very powerful practice and eventually will make the later gears more accessible to you with attainment.

I've been reading a book detailing the gradual path in the Mahamudra tradition that I think is excellent, and if you are very inclined to a technical practice that points out step by step, then it is a great meditation manual and resource. It has many great pointers and may help clarify your practice, but it is lengthy and requires patience. You also may want to skip some of the introductory sections. That book is here:

www.4shared.com/office/s7E-1gXp/DanielPB...intingOuttheGre.html

Also, here is a page with a few notes / pointers I made for myself & others regarding 3rd gear for me:

i.imgur.com/OrV3h.jpg

That said, I am not claiming any authority here and merely speak from my own practice and experience, but I hope you may find this input helpful!

metta!

Justin