How long for stream entry?

Just wondering how long it's currently taking people to get stream entry round these parts following Kenneth's method? Possible with no retreat time? I get the impression that shinzen young thinks its possible with a couple hours a day and then a longer sitting once a month?

Took me around 3 months. 30 min to 1 hour a day. Sometimes more when I was in equanimity. No retreats. However, it doesn't come this fast for everyone. It can take months to years. I've lately been trying to look at why some people progress faster than others. Very daunting task it seems.

I am probably not representative of the lot here. Perhaps there is a normal distribution of the time to get there. Lots of people here have got past what is called 4th in the time I've been doing noting, and I have yet to experience what we call SE.

But, speaking of Shinzen, there's been lots of progress if I am to judge by his criteria of success

So, the question is if it's possible to find an average and standard deviation for the time to get to this experience and verbal confirmation from others here..?

i think the problem w predictions is what each person brings to their practice includes their life experience, personality, obsessions, preconceptions, attachments, memories, fears, ability to follow instructions, excuses, biology, health, family situation, etc etc. all of that is included in practice and impacts how one practices. or said another way karma is a factor.

"Just wondering how long it's currently taking people to get stream entry round these parts following Kenneth's method? Possible with no retreat time? I get the impression that shinzen young thinks its possible with a couple hours a day and then a longer sitting once a month?"

I got the impression that what Shinzen calls stream entry is a completely different attainment from the Theravada and Progress of Insight map stream entry we refer to here and on the DhO. I think Shinzen uses the term to mean the realization of emptiness. I got emptiness essentially by accident 9 years ago. It lasted a night. The experience hasn't come back. It can be temporary. Stream entry as we refer to it here is a permanent change. I definitely did not get emptiness back when I got stream entry. I did get the blip of cessation at the time, but they are very different experiences that people refer to with confusingly similar names.

"i think the problem w predictions is what each person brings to their practice includes their life experience, personality, obsessions, preconceptions, attachments, memories, fears, ability to follow instructions, excuses, biology, health, family situation, etc etc. all of that is included in practice and impacts how one practices. or said another way karma is a factor. "

Good post. Or in other words. It's really hard to tell how long it can take.

It's not uncommon for people to set motivational goals, like "I will get first path before summer vacation starts!" This can be an effective intention for keeping your practice focused. Sometimes - given good practice - such goals can work. On the other hand if you are spending a good amount of time constantly trying to evaluate where you are and how much longer it might take, that's wasted time and will just slow things down...

"Just wondering how long it's currently taking people to get stream entry round these parts following Kenneth's method? Possible with no retreat time? I get the impression that shinzen young thinks its possible with a couple hours a day and then a longer sitting once a month?"

Joel, out of curiosity, how long do you think it would take... if you just had to make a guess?

"Joel, out of curiosity, how long do you think it would take... if you just had to make a guess?"

I dunno, many years of intensive retreats etc? 8?

"I dunno, many years of intensive retreats etc? 8?"

Almost definitely not (but who can really say?). I would say the average is somewhere around 2-4 years of normal practice, maybe a week or ten day retreat once a year, but so many have done it in less than 2 years with no retreat -- not me

Out of curiousity, what's your motivation? Curiosity? Achievement? Exploration? Philosophical? What seems to be the thing you want to figure out?

"Almost definitely not (but who can really say?). I would say the average is somewhere around 2-4 years of normal practice, maybe a week or ten day retreat once a year, but so many have done it in less than 2 years with no retreat -- not me

Out of curiousity, what's your motivation? Curiosity? Achievement? Exploration? Philosophical? What seems to be the thing you want to figure out?"

to stop suffering quite so much

"to stop suffering quite so much
"

Well, the good news and the bad news is that awareness of suffering is the way we make progress! Good news because it works, bad news because it means fully experiencing momentary suffering as part of the practice.

The purely good news is that suffering is reduced >at every step< in the practice. In fact, SE isn't a big change as much as it is just locking in the ways we've already learned how to reduce suffering from all the steps before SE.

Hope that helps!

"Well, the good news and the bad news is that awareness of suffering is the way we make progress! Good news because it works, bad news because it means fully experiencing momentary suffering as part of the practice.

The purely good news is that suffering is reduced >at every step< in the practice. In fact, SE isn't a big change as much as it is just locking in the ways we've already learned how to reduce suffering from all the steps before SE.

Hope that helps!"

Suffering is reduced at every part of the practice in as much as clinging is reduced.

The benefit of stream entry is that the intellectual belief of an individual "me" is shattered beyond repair, which makes
clinging to "my" crap somewhat more difficult.

To hazard a guess regarding time, a person could probably do it in a week or two if they had enough concentration to access to j1 and 2 and did absolutely nothing other than note one note per second for every walking moment. The drive to do such a thing is probably what needs to be cultivated first for most folks, and that's precisely what a precise and vivid awareness of suffering can do.

How's that for setting unrealistic but potentially motivating expectations!!! Given that all people I have ever encountered on the entire planet don't have that much concentration and could never sustain one note per second for 12-18 hours a day for two weeks (let alone 30 minutes)... Most people can barely motivate to scrub the shower once a week or stick with an exercise routine.

A huge part of the time needed for practice is learning to practice, learning to sustain practice, learning to practice more effectively, etc etc. And that's not time wasted, but simply part of the process.

eta: above meant to be teasing/humorous!

It took me a little over a year from the time when I began a serious meditation practice, about 6 months from the time I began noting. I had a couple of retreats in there, one of them 3 days, a second lasting 8 days, and another lasting 4 days. This last came while I was in high equanimity. I kept the momentum going after the retreat and that's what put me over the top.

This time-consciousness reminds me of when my husband and I undertook an international adoption. We joined a forum and the talk was all about "how long did it take you?" "when did you get your referral?" "when did you get to travel?" "when did you get to take your baby home?" The networking and fussing about who took longer and who got the baby without a huge wait became a kind of obsession. The answer you really want is, this is doable, other people do it, you can do it too, and it won't take you 5 years in a Thai forest somewhere, or a bunch of 3-month IMS retreats, or whatever. Get some instruction, follow the instructions, post your practice notes, read other people's, work on mindfulness during the day as much as possible, go on retreat if you can, work at home diligently if you can't, and it will work out.

Motivation is what I do.

Seriously though, continuous noting can be made into a valid lifestyle choice. You don't have to have verbal (aloud or internal) labels, although they are helpful for more formal practice. If you keep at it long enough, it will morph into right mindfulness. An ingrained habit of being constantly aware of your present experience in a non-conceptual fashion so that the roots of clinging and delusion are extirpated is really what we are shooing for anyway.

That is true, Owen. Did you find in your own practice that that sort of attentiveness "off cushion" naturally developed after a while? Is that what you mean by it morphing into right mindfulness? For me it seemed to shift over rather spontaneously, perhaps somewhere around first path, perhaps about a year or so after I first started formal meditation practice.

Not sure I've ever thought of "practice" as a valid lifestyle choice. More of a desperate necessity that once begun then took over my world. Or something like that.

"That is true, Owen. Did you find in your own practice that that sort of attentiveness "off cushion" naturally developed after a while? Is that what you mean by it morphing into right mindfulness? For me it seemed to shift over rather spontaneously, perhaps somewhere around first path, perhaps about a year or so after I first started formal meditation practice.

Not sure I've ever thought of "practice" as a valid lifestyle choice. More of a desperate necessity that once begun then took over my world. Or something like that. "

I noted so much off cushion that it kind of became the default, just without the labels. At this point, for the most part I forget that it's not the "normal" mode for people unless I'm teaching noting and have then have contrast. I suppose my point is that you never get done with it, only better at it until you don't know you are doing it anymore.

fwiw there seems to be a parallel idea in Christian mysticism, of the natural arising over time of spontaneous prayer, by which is not meant recitation of words, but a sort of natural inclination of the mind to attentiveness to God (in a present-moment-awareness way, the qualities of which will change over time as the person's practice deepens). One doesn't "get done" with that as if it's a task, but simply gets ever more deeply soaked in the Great Silence until the "self" is ever-more forgotten in the dark/light of God's infinite presence.

"Well, the good news and the bad news is that awareness of suffering is the way we make progress! Good news because it works, bad news because it means fully experiencing momentary suffering as part of the practice.

The purely good news is that suffering is reduced >at every step< in the practice. In fact, SE isn't a big change as much as it is just locking in the ways we've already learned how to reduce suffering from all the steps before SE.

Hope that helps!"

Yes - I am still Pre-SE after hitting A&P a year and a half ago (maybe long before that but who knows), and just sticking with a useful practice along the way through all the rough spots is worth it. I am many times happier and content than a few years ago and it doesn't depend on how I feel. The journey IS worth it.

Owen, when you speak of noting without labels, is that a sort of 'tapping' whatever it is with awareness, with a certain frequency?
Is there a difference between this and "noticing"? More active?

"The answer you really want is, this is doable, other people do it, you can do it too, and it won't take you 5 years in a Thai forest somewhere, or a bunch of 3-month IMS retreats, or whatever. Get some instruction, follow the instructions, post your practice notes, read other people's, work on mindfulness during the day as much as possible, go on retreat if you can, work at home diligently if you can't, and it will work out." -JLaurelC

Well put! This is indeed doable, we see it all the time here, and well-documented in these online journals. There is a lot of individual variation, as you can see; a couple of folks in this very thread are still pre-stream-entry although they've been practicing diligently for somewhat longer than the average, which I would estimate at somewhere between 6 and 18 months for this particular community. The important thing, though, is that they are still at it and still finding it worthwhile!

By the way, I have no sympathy for any of you slow-pokes! It took me 10 years from my first A&P to stream entry, including 2 and a half years of intensive practice, mostly in Southest Asia, under some of the best teachers in the world. (Intended as playful goading, self-deprecation, backdoor bragging, and mock humility.)

I would've pressed the "like"-button for that last post if there was one, Kenneth

I believe that's the point... The practice is worthwhile, and one shouldn't really beat up on oneself if one doesn't reach a certain 'stage' in a certain time. Then there's the risk of missing out on all the other good stuff that comes along the way.

Thanks for sharing the knowledge you've accumulated during your journey and helping people have insights even faster

"Owen, when you speak of noting without labels, is that a sort of 'tapping' whatever it is with awareness, with a certain frequency?
Is there a difference between this and "noticing"? More active?
"

Yeah, tapping with awareness is a good word for it. As to the frequency, the more you do it, the faster it gets and then you wind up with the "deadman switch" happening automatically. I'd say the gold standard is when you can watch dukkha arise and see the craving that caused it in real time. When you can do that, the underlying tendency to crave that particular thing gets de-patterned and you are well on your way.

I once roughly calculated that it took me about 500 hours of practice. I think that was 9 months at about 2 hours per day, plus occasional day-long home retreats of 7-9 hours. But that doesn't count the countless hours of reading the forums. Also, I was doing it wrong for about four months. So, a teacher probably would have helped a lot and saved a lot of time.