Three questions about practice

Up until the past month or so, the style of vipassana practice I would do consisted of stabilizing concentration and then dropping awareness down into the body and looking through the "lenses" of one or more of the three characteristics, seeing phenomena, especially inside of the body, as rapidly arising and passing away and/or seeing phenomena as not-self. This was basically a choiceless awareness practice supported by skeletal noting of whatever happened to come up in a given moment, all against the backdrop of impermanence where the body was less a solid object and more taking on the qualities of a star or a flame. I more recently added Kenneth's triple noting technique and also began to develop the jhanas. The last time I really used this practice I was going into fourth or fifth jhana to stabilize concentration, then doing the vipassana technique described above.

More recently, I've been doing the "riding the jhanic arc" practice, going up to 8th jhana before descending back down. I haven't been noting at all.

I think I know the answer to this question based on readings on this site, but I figured I'd ask for direct confirmation since the jhanic arc practice is just so damn fun:

Is the jhanic arc practice more recommended at this point than the style of vipassana I described that I had been using earlier?

Further, is it even more advisable to cultivate the witness consciousness and then do the jhanic arc practice?

Lastly, does progress through the strata of mind provide clues to where one might be at in terms of path? (I know my experiences place me below 3rd path, but I don't know more than that)...

Many thanks to all who read and/or respond!

Hi NeverSummer: I apologize if you have some sort of ongoing journal, but that would probably be the way to go. Come here, write in a detailed way the phenomena you are experiencing, new experiences, etc., ask questions when you are curious about what comes up in practice and people will take note and respond. In regards to your first question, there does not seem to be a best practice, but noting is heavily used here because of its validated results by many of the yogis on this site, many of whom used it regularly though not totally all the way up until what is described as 4th path here, and beyond. Question #2: See what works best for you, though some have used that technique with success. I really don't know. 3: Many yogis report that upon reaching third path they were able to access jhanas that they did not previously have access too. Hope this has been helpful. Best wishes.

WF, thanks so much for reading and responding. I do indeed have a practice journal on this site (and I can certainly keep the questions over there).

I mentioned noting (and lack thereof) because of something Kenneth had written in the "Q & A on Vipassana" section: "As a general rule, note until things become very subtle. At that point I would let go of noting as it is unnecessary and can disturb subtle states of concentration." This reflected my own experience -- while detailed noting was of great help while doing the more body-based vipassana, noting seems to be a bit of a distraction when doing jhanic arc practice.. Best, Jim

No problem. I didn't know you had a journal, and didn't mean to imply that all questions should be kept there. Ask away!

NeverSummer - The jhanic arc practice is best utilized post second path. Second path's focus is on completing a second insight cycle, while third path is focused on either attaining pureland jhanas (which the jhanic arc practice is really good for) or NS.

If you've never had a fruition you haven't gotten stream entry.

If you've completed one insight cycle, gone through review, and then completed a new insight cycle you are second path.

If you can access PL jhanas or NS you are third path.

Thanks again, WF & mumuwu.

In reflecting on this, I'm now wondering if there's a difference between "riding the jhanic arc" and "accessing strata of mind (through concentration)". I've been assuming, perhaps wrongly, that these are one and the same. In Kenneth's writing on this site on "Jhana and Nana", he says "Once a yogi...reaches the 4th nana, it is imperative that the teacher recognize this and change the instruction from effort to concentration...the important thing now is to access the relevant mental strata."

My interpretation of that was that accessing the relevant mental strata was doing the jhanic arc practice. Is there a difference here? I am admittedly new to these types of practice, but it does seem like Kenneth is advocating working with jhanic arc/strata of mind (if these are indeed the same thing) anytime after the first A&P. On the flip side, in going back through some of the readings on the site, I've read descriptions of sits that traverse the jhanic arc (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1, with unstable nanas where they occur in that spectrum) and sits that traverse nanas (in "the progress of insight part five" a sit is described where the meditator goes from fourth nana to 15th nana (knowledge of fruition)and then immediately returns back to the fourth nana). I guess you could say I'm confused with regards to the differences in how these sits unfold.

Many thanks to all who read this, or have read earlier entries. Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

What I meant by jhanic arc practice is using the witness to go up and down the available strata to flush out more and more levels of the mind.

Post 4th nana you don't have to worry about seeing the characteristics so much, you just need to get access to the remaining nanas. This is based on concentration.

You can access the jhanic arc via noting, concentration on the breath etc. The jhanic arc is Kenneth's term for the 20 strata of mind he's laid out in his teachings. So yeah you are correct in assuming that accessing strata = jhanic arc practice, however I was more specifically talking about using the witness and focusing on attaining formless jhanas and pureland jhanas.

Using the witness, depending on where you are you will get different patterns (check out my last post on Laurel's journal).

Hope this helps.

Edit - Check the latest post in the third path thread (Not Laurels). I got confused. Here's a link
kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/49...Third+Path?offset=80

Mumuwu, thanks for clarifying and thanks as always for reading and responding. I'm curious about the four phases (development, fruition, review, wallowing) in the post you referred to: Are these patterns that you can consciously intend to engage in or are they reflections where you're currently at with your practice? (I can certainly see how wallowing could be both). For my part, my sits look like what is described in the review phase -- if I sit and just focus on what's going on, I go from 2nd to 8th jhana (with unstable territory between 3 & 4) and then 7,6,5,4,3,2,1. Then I start to climb again in the same pattern. This occurs whether I am cultivating the witness consciousness or not. I've only just started doing this practice and haven't experienced anything like the development or fruition phases.

I think for me the wild card here is fruitions. I don't know much about them & haven't been trained to look for them. I saw where Kenneth had written that "these subtle phenomena can happen, but unless you are trained to notice them you may never see them."

The patterns are indications of where you are currently. Prior to stream entry you would be in the developmental phase in each sit. Right after stream entry, sits look like the fruition phase. Some time after that you will notice the review phase and will go through those sorts of sits until you wind up working on the next path.

After second path, these phases repeat over and over without dumping you into a new path.

If you can clearly identify the strata as you describe, then one way of identifying a fruition would be if you were to notice a shift from, say the 4th jhana, back to the 2nd jhana (As described in the fruition phase). After a fruition you find yourself back at the A&P / 2nd jhana territory.

The fact you start your sits at 2nd jhana/A&P would normally indicate path.

Have you gone through the nanas up to equanimity (have you experienced the dukkha nanas)?

"Have you gone through the nanas up to equanimity (have you experienced the dukkha nanas)?"

Indeed i have. From my practice journal, glossing over the past 11 months:


*Went on a two week Dathun retreat over the holidays last year where I mainly did the body-based/3 characteristics vipassana described above, plus dipped my feet in the Mahamudra waters. Crossed some spectacular territory here '“ energetic openings, supernatural craziness, the whole nine yards.

*Practice became discursive as hell for the next few months and was marked by a certain kind of periodic energetic upheavals involving anxiety and heart charka activity. Nevertheless practice still seemed 'productive' '“ there was still a sense of progress. i just surrendered to whatever was going on during my sits, though off the cushion it was more of a struggle during times of stress.

*Practice settled down somewhat during the summer and became much less discursive. Interestingly, this coincided with the introduction of the tsa lung/nine breathings of purification practices from Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche's 'Awakening the Sacred Body.'

*Went on a 9 day vipassana retreat lead by John Travis in late July '“ early August. By this time I was able to get into the jhanas and use them to stabilize my vipassana practice (even though I couldn't experientially parse out the jhanas or tell one from another). This was by far the most productive stretch of practice in my life. We also did some mahamudra/non-dual stuff near the end of the retreat.

...over the past few months i've passed through what seemed to me like high equanimity territory -- able to sit and concentrate for seemingly indefinite periods of time, lots of bliss, etc. i started doing the jhanic arc practice just less than two months ago. Around two-three weeks ago i noticed that my sits were starting in 2nd jhana rather than 1st.

I'll do some research on and look for fruitions...