Cultivating the Formless Realm Vipassana Jhanas

Hey, folks! I'm new to the Kenneth Folk forum, but I've been over at the DHO for a bit now. I've branched over to this forum to get some diversity of views, and possibly some new perspectives on my practice. I'm going to transfer my practice thread over here as well. I look forward to whatever input yogi's may have on my practice.

So I've been hangin' out in Equanimity for the past month or so, exploring the territory, working towards stream entry.

Is it useful to try to cultivate the formless realm vipassana jhanas as an attempt to get stream?

After meditating for a bit I get into a place where my awareness becomes vast, wide, panoramic, less body focused and more wide open space focused, as if I'm looking off into the horizon, like I'm lying on the ground looking into the sky, etc., which I've come to associate rightly or wrongly with the formless realm jhana of boundless space -- but in its vipassana jhananic form.

My last few sits I've been experimenting with cultivating the sense that the boundless space is in fact filled with awareness, such that it becomes boundless consciousness [vipassana jhana # 6]. My working hypothesis is that this will make the investigation of the subtler aspects of the mind [which is what everyone suggests is the thing to be done while in Equanimity] more concrete. If consciousness becomes vast, then it is easier to explore, no? Am I on the right track?

That being said, with the goal being stream, is it useful to then further attempt to develop the 7th vipassana jhana of nothingness? If the doorway into stream involves noticing the three characteristics at the heart of all things, but particularly mind/awareness/consciousness, is it better to just hang out and investigate consciousness while in the 6th vipassana jhana [while in Equanimity], and not drop consciousness for nothingness? Or should one also try to eventually get to the 8th vipassana jhana Neither Perception Nor Yet Non-Perception? Basically, is the key to getting stream from within Equanimity working one's way through the formless realms until finding stream somewhere while in very fine-tuned #8 vipassana jhana?

I should probably note that I've never had a "hard" jhanic experience, meaning, solely as a result of samatha practice, but I've only experienced what I think are the vipassana jhana versions via scanning, noting, choiceless awareness, etc., namely, vipassana practice.

I used to think that Equanimity was just a bland place, rather ubiquitous, without a whole lot to distinguish it, etc., but if one adds in the formless realm vipassana jhanas to one's experience of Equanimity then there are a number of distinct levels, and so forth, that one can explore while within this insight stage. Yes? Am I on the right track?

Side Note: Also, I'm no scholar, but am I wrong to think that in the classic literature [for lack of a better term] there hasn't been a whole lot of discussion of the formless realms being part of the vipassana jhanas? I mean, I've usually read about how the vipassana jhanas are 1-4, but much less about the formless realms being included within them.

Oh, by the way, here is a nice mind-map which shows the linkages between the formless realms and the insight stages static.squarespace.com/static/5037f52d84...4092518/Pathways.jpg

Hi Alan! Welcome!

I get the sense, looking at this thread and your practice thread, that you're finding something unsatisfactory about Equanimity and looking for something within it that's more validating. If so, go straight toward that- that's dukkha in action!

I think the consensus among post-SE people around here is that formless jhanas rarely come into play until after 2nd path (people can correct me if I'm wrong).

That's not to say that you aren't seeing their characteristics- it's just to say that they aren't a pre-requisite for stream-entry. Nor are "hard" jhanas 1-4.

You seem to have a grasp of the techniques that you need to investigate *this moment*, and it's those that will do it for you. You know when investigation has caught fire, when it has its own momentum, and gets you to equanimity.

Once you're there, when you start to feel that voice saying "hey, this isn't enough, I want more", then note that (plus everything else) until the momentum comes back.

"
I think the consensus among post-SE people around here is that formless jhanas rarely come into play until after 2nd path (people can correct me if I'm wrong).
"

You are right. Not needed for SE. I couldn't access them till after 2nd path. That is not saying it isn't possible pre-2nd path.

Thanks ya'll. I'll take your advice to heart. Instead of looking for some kinda special technique to nail 1st Path, I'll stick with the basics and just note, note, and note some more.

When in Equanimity, I've thus far switched to choiceless awareness. I think in the near future I'll experiment with a more persistent noting. A friend of mine recommended at least one note every five to seven seconds. Or, as Rob recommended, I could just switch to noting when the "momentum" lags.