Self-Transcendence via New Scientist

Tom Otvos wrote:  I still continually battle with the whole "is cessation a necessary condition for awakening" thing, or is it just some weird ascetic thing that misses the point.

For what it's worth Tom, none of the putative path moments I've experienced contained a clearly identifiable cessation. There was a noticeable 'event' after which the pattern of meditation changed in accordance with the maps but the actual cessations came very much after the first path event. 

Chris Marti wrote: Hi, Tom.
I suspect we have a definitional difference on what "hardcore" means.

Coming to it with complete ignorance of actual practice, I saw 'hardcore' as meaning  "Hey this isn't fluffy spiritual bullshit, it actually works"

I think I would (today) define hardcore as doing something with focus, attention, desire for the intended outcome, etc. etc. rather than dabbling around with no focus. That said, I think that sort of 'dog on a bone' trait is something one has when there's a perceived need that is extremely bothersome. One reason, I think, that suffering can be understood as a meaningful driver of spiritual practice. Similarly for most activities - there has to be a sense of urgency or need in order to bother doing something. That can be inflicted by fear of friends' opinions, fear of social exclusion, trying to make some annoyance stop, desire to be perceived a certain way, desire for interior peace, and myriad other things, I think. The 'dabbling' response could sometimes be because a person has multiple pressures/discomforts that seem to indicate different solutions. For instance, the spiritual seeking desire draws them towards an intensive spiritual practice, but the mockery of their friends or family draws them towards not doing that kind of practice, so they do it on the side, or in secret, or just a little, to try to ride the line between the two pressures.

Just a ponder. 

But point being that one can do any practice in a hardcore way, or a lax way, but some practices include as part of the practice a kind of life or death urgency (classical Christianity is typically like this), which then tends to draw hardcore-inclined people. A movement or method that sells itself as being relaxing, easy, not requiring a lot of effort and so on will be more attractive to people who like that sell. And sometimes people travel between the different ends of the continuum depending on where they are in their practice. I remember being quite intrigued when my Hasidic psychotherapist mentioned in passing that in the past she had been "more pious". I mean to ask her to explain that sometime. I guess that in a previous part of her life she might have been more 'hardcore'.  

Hi Phil! Would you mind telling me more please  

Interesting what you say here! So you had no cessation “proper” as in total utter wipe out of consciousness and no sense of how long this cessation lasted after the consciousness came back online? 

Would you say a bit more about those other “events” and what shift they resulted in afterwards? 
Just in short of course and if I want to dig deeper I’m sure I can find it in your log (I’m not really into digging through long logs hence asking here)  

Also no rush, reply when you find the time. 

Thank you! 

Just to ponder on my previous ponder:

1) I suspect in some cases the 'hardcore' practices (say, fasting, chastity, long hours of meditation, solitude, or other things which stress the person) are efficacious in part because they create stress, and stress creates effort (to either stick it out or flee), and this can speed up (maybe?) a process which is otherwise dependent on the natural stresses of life. Which for some people occur naturally in convenient ways (sickness, death, accidents, loss), but if not, one can instigate a similar situation 'artificially' to try to boost engagement.

2) I would also think that 'hardcore' things are only hardcore at times. And at other times they might naturally arise and not be difficult. For instance, a long sit or chastity might be a huge struggle in the beginning, but a relief or restful experience in later practice. If one is in a place where practices are natural and easy, then the same thing a beginner or struggler might find 'hardcore' aren't really 'hardcore' anymore. Kind of like a shy kid finding standing in front of the class terrifying and a big deal, but an outgoing kid loves it.

Dusko wrote: Hi Phil! Would you mind telling me more please 

 

Interesting what you say here! So you had no cessation “proper” as in total utter wipe out of consciousness and no sense of how long this cessation lasted after the consciousness came back online? 

No, first path was a weird little mental twisting sensation, second was like full mind warp. Cessations/fruitions have, so far as I can tell, been very short duration events, i.e. fractions of seconds - annata fruitions are like an instantaneous discontinuity, annica a black discontinuity and dukkha like having your brain suddenly sucked through a wormhole and turned inside-out.
 
If you want duration then you need Nirodha Samapatti, which I've never achieved.

I do entertain the possibility that the path moment is like an anatta fruition - the discontinuity is there but it was so quick (and so novel) that I couldn't recognise it.

(I'll post something a bit more detailed on my thread later)

Ona's ponder got me pondering and I think she's right. 

For example one may believe chastity is a hardcore practice (it's certainly not what I would call commercial practice) or one can realize that for people on a spiritual path at a certain point it may just be a natural blossoming/ maturing thing that isn't exactly hard or demanding to do, and maybe they had some life events co-occur with meditation insights and it is a natural blossoming and growth process that happens, and that's where they're at, and the whole thing is related to taking down the self-serving complex. I did hardcore practices like 24-36 hour fasting, chastity, thought restraint, multi-hour sits, silence, etc. but it didn't feel hardcore it felt like the natural awake awareness was leading me somewhere. I was being led by God himself I didn't need the "hardcore" certification to verify that my practice was sufficiently rigorous. I certainly didn't think of the practices I was doing as "hardcore" but to an outside observer I was a strange one. You get people thinking you're a bit crazy just because you're doing something that a lot of people get hung up about and most aren't willing to try it. That's hardcore i suppose. 

I didn't feel like I was practicing very "rigorously" or intensely during the period i was meditating 4 hours a day a and was celibate. I never watched anything besides Sadguru talks and I was alone for long periods of time and it was great.  For a beginner meditator that might not be so easy. It was simply a natural intuitive things for where I happened to be with those conditions and circumstances. 

Let’s look at it this way; 

Kenneth Folk said something I liked. Something like , we can sit there for 60 minutes and do all sorts of things: be absorbed in pleasant states, have sex fantasies, sleep, worry, etc … and at the end have maybe 5 minutes of insight practice taking place. And then we say “I practiced for 60 minutes!”  

But if you keep noting your own arising experience (he continues to explain) throughout the sit, then you indeed have practiced insight meditation for the duration  of those 60 minutes. 

Noting is but a tool which presents to you , your own mind workings. And it seems to present mind stages as these insights start to unfold, resulting then in path moments. 

Let me remind you I used to laugh at Vipassana back in my Shamatha Days as I thought it to be a ridiculous practice. 
However I was very wrong and glad I’ve given it a solid try. 

Dusko, Is "noting" simply 'saying' to oneself 'I see aversion...I see that picture...I see geometric square flash...I notice my leg hurting...etc?' And just doing that, and nothing else, on every stray wisp of a thought, for pretty much the whole sitting?

I haven't tried doing that for a full hour.  To be honest, probably not even for a straight five minutes.   Usually my thoughts are so fleeting, trivial, and easily kept at bay that marking them out as something special, rather than just something to ignore, seemed at odds with keeping and deepening access concentration.

First of all its good to get familiar with what to note/notice/pay attention to:

1 - Body sensations
2 - Feeling tone (pleasant, neutral, unpleasant)
3 - Mind states
4 - Thoughts

Once you get familiar with these 4 categories of experience then you do something called "freestyle noting" using any of those as they arise matter of fact. We do not wish for any to happen and instead only openly observe what indeed is arising and once we recognize it we make a note (either aloud, or silent or just notice without labels). Its good to keep a healthy pace and try note 1-3 sensations a second but even 1 sensation every 2 seconds is fine. We don't want to fall into La-la Land too often so ramping up the pace is always good. All this is to be done with a calm and relaxed body, hence good to note if there are any tensions arising in the body due to adding too much effort. Best start a log journal here on AN so folks can give you tips along the way. 

Here is the best basic explanation of Noting by my ex-teacher Kenneth Folk, here he breaks it down in a few short videos:

I ought to also add this video by Shinzen as it has priceless tips  

Shinzen about Labeling/Noting