The Aitken-Shimano Letters

Hi Telecaster,
That is a great story you related. Indeed, getting Dharma transmission is usually done at a public ceremony. It is meant to inform the flock/members that the transmitted person is to be treated as special now. That the flock should treat her with a certain respect and deference. But in this public pronouncement, it also changes the transmitted one. It does this in two ways-because it transforms how others see and act towards this person -it consecrates this person and makes them an official representative of the institution who now speaks with the authority of the institution, as opposed to others who at best only express their opinions and two, it transforms the representation the invested person has of themselves and the behavior they feel to adopt to conform to that role.

It is an incredibly rich story that is emblematic of much of institutions and how they operate. The investiture also separates this person not so much from people who have not received the rite of Dharma transmission as much as it does from people who will never receive it, that is most people. This type of institutional rite like Dharma transmission is what French sociologist Pierre Bourdieu calls "social magic" , an act that creates difference ex nihilo. This person is now an authorized spokesperson , certified to be correct. The marks of respect this person receives each time they are addressed as roshi are repetitions of the inaugural act of dharma transmissions. In a sense this is why recognizing forms and forms of respect that define politeness are so profoundly political.

Pierre Bourdieu writes wonderfully on this topic in his "Language and Symbolic Power" pp. 105 - 126.

Thanks much for the story,

Stuart

Hi Alex,
I think your description of mind to mind transmission is the ideal. I have seen it given for other reasons. Two cases come to mind: one as a present to some one moving a way from the center after years of good work for the center - two because the person was to be given Dharma transmission, that is, made into a Chan/Zen master and the teacher wanted him to have mind to mind transmission first. Seems strange yes- but it is true.
As to not relying on words/written teachings, that was incorporated in to Bodhidharmas four part definition of Chan/Zen rather late, hundreds of years after Bodhidharma lived.

Hui-neng the Sixth patriarch of Zen is a shadowy figure. Almost nothing is known of him so it was easy to write whatever one wanted attached to his name. These early descriptions of Zen really represent sectarian views and self definitions serving a number of purposes, teaching being one. I would be very careful in taking what you wrote as historical fact.

Hi Alex,
The Soto sect of Zen in since about the 16, 17th century has tried to match the form of Dogen's time when the abbot of every temple had Dharma transmission. So now in Japan with temples being largely hereditary with the oldest son routinely inheriting the temple, this son is given D.t after a short stay in either Eiheiji or the other main Soto teaching monastery, the name escapes me now.
The San Francisco Zen Center, though in the Soto line, is some what different , though bureaucratic in its own way. People receive D.t. after putting in their time for so many years and showing dedication to the center and Zen and showing the proper politeness and some feel for the teaching and practice.

Terrific analogy Alex, between Zen's idea and every Catholic priest being Jesus Christ in person.

Stuart

Telecaster's very relevant story about the Zen priest(ess) brings to my mind the way this stuff works in business. It is the same, and there is no surprise in that. You get a promotion and you expect people to treat you with more respect, revere your words, obey your edicts. This is hard wired into us, I think. It's a very rare business leader who sees this and succeeds by ignoring it. I have the privilege of being able to interact daily with CEOs and other business leaders and it becomes clear in mere seconds which type of leader a person is, and whether they will deserve respect or just demand respect.

Hi cmarti,

I think your point is well taken. The issue here is that religious traditions work so hard to get people/followers to see that their orthodox representatives as being some how higher or superior to "ordinary" people. As you describe in business so it is in religions, only the empowering stories carry more weight with religious followers.
I think it is also true as you point out, that people that get these positions worked and planned to get them. In a word, whatever claims to selflessness and desirelessness religions and Buddhism and Zen in particular claim for it members and leaders, most often the leaders had an interest in becoming leaders and worked and maneuvered to attain that role.

"I think it is also true as you point out, that people that get these positions worked and planned to get them. In a word, whatever claims to selflessness and desirelessness religions and Buddhism and Zen in particular claim for it members and leaders, most often the leaders had an interest in becoming leaders and worked and maneuvered to attain that role."

Definitely true in the example I gave.

Hi Stuart,

Thank you for your interesting posts. As you have understood, my intention was to first explain what mind transmission is supposed to be, especially for those who are not familiar with the Zen tradition, before criticizing what is it in reality. In this respect, I had an interesting discussion with a (dharma brother) friend of mine who received the Soto transmission in Sojiji -the second head temple of the Soto-shu- 10 years ago. He told me all kind of hilarious insider stories, including Kabuki style fake dharma combats.

What I understand is that the Soto school realizes that it is losing influence in Japan, notably for demographic reasons. Strategically, they are encouraging missionary work in the West where they reach a younger and somehow naïve public and therefore will be more and more likely to facilitate '˜dharma transmission'. The problem is that joining the club also means supporting the political and economical agenda of the organization, which happens to be problematic considering the fact that their missionary projects are not backed up with the financial support required for the task. A wealthy individual is therefore likely to be recognized as highly enlightened roshi!

-Alex

Hi Alex,

A Kabuki style fake dharma combat story sounds like a scripted play. I would love to hear a fuller explanation.

I believe some thing similar has gone on here in the USA where the dharma combat is not scripted, but rather, the person doing "combat" with the sangha, is schooled in typing the questions and in how to answer a given type of question. In a sense it is more devious in that it has a look of a fresh reply coming from some kind insight into the dharma. That may be partially so, but it is also hardly the fresh and unrehearsed reacting to circumstances and the moment the tradition likes people to believe, and the show is meant to demonstrate.

Stuart

"... whatever claims to selflessness and desirelessness religions and Buddhism and Zen in particular claim for it members and leaders, most often the leaders had an interest in becoming leaders and worked and maneuvered to attain that role."

Yes, and so it is in religion, politics, and business. All groups, all people, all types of activity.

Thanks, Stuart.

"
"... whatever claims to selflessness and desirelessness religions and Buddhism and Zen in particular claim for it members and leaders, most often the leaders had an interest in becoming leaders and worked and maneuvered to attain that role."

Yes, and so it is in religion, politics, and business. All groups, all people, all types of activity.

Thanks, Stuart.

"

Right, I agree with you both, Chris and Stuart. Most often the people who become leaders have had that in mind from the beginning. Most often...but not always.

In my case, I had no desire to become the leader of a Zen Center. I did not even want to be a priest! But when the chief priest said he was moving away, I looked at the priest who would be elevated to replace him, and I concluded that she needed some help. She was a nice woman, but not a very competent priest. So I began studying to become a priest.

She eventually "flaked out" (gave up and stopped showing up, after promising that she would return "next month" -- always next month). Finally, she handed over the mantle of authority to me in a public ceremony and I became the Abbott. So I ran the Zen Center alone for nearly a year.

Then the priest who had moved away returned. He acted as if he were still in charge. And I let him act that way, because he was retired from his paying job and had lots of time to spend at the Zen Center, which I did not. Later, when I disagreed with him, he told me to leave. So I had to point out that I was the official in charge, the Abbot, and he had no authority to eject me. He resigned in a huff, refusing my plea to meet with me and discuss our differences. He started his own Zen group that met in his home.

That was 2 years ago last month. I recently learned that he has retired from being a Zen priest. Now he's doing Jewish contemplative stuff. I trust that his religious compatriots will not allow him to get away with anything;)

Hi Chris,

Yes - that is the point as you clearly said, "so it is in religion, politics, and business. All groups, all people, all types of activity." Political and business people will admit to this, politicians less granted, with religious people far and away the least group to admit to this. Whie the institutions representing the leaders are loathe to admit this.

Thanks,

Stuart

When I was in Berkeley in 1971, I was warned by people on Telegraph Ave to avoid Zen Center, in other words, the word was out on the street there first. The book "Shoes at the Door" gives too much credit to Zen Center for having elevated the "Foodie" scene in the Bay Area, it was written by someone who was never there, wanting to say something good after having said so many negative things.

Actually all these problems, whether it is with Roshi Baker Aitken-Shimano, Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, or Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, etc. etc. they all bear the same characteristic: the "Knowledge" given is actually intellectual - although it is intimated that is from a source beyond the intellect, it is actually from the intellect. People hear teachings, grasp them with their thought-processes, and think the have something greater than someone elses word that they have learned to emulate - erroneously.

This is really just another form of "wallowing in ignorance" - and people are really attached to it and certain teachers really can profit from it. When I say "profit from it" I mean cold cash, power of hundreds of zombie-like slaves, and as much sex as they want. Usually alcohol and drugs figure in, often. Then there are the clever explanations for these behaviors like "using attachment as a skilled means" I say prove it. Guru-ism is based on preying on peoples dependency. A real teacher first and foremost will teach against the dependency. That is a whole another huge topic however. Helplessness, dependency, wanting to be dominated and controlled, "Trust" as the gurus call it.

I say teach installation of a BS-Meter with audible signal.

p e a c e

h a n s e n

hansen:
I hope what follows isn't taken too negatively -- I t hink I just feel like arguing a little.
Suzuki-roshi didn't die until the end of 1971 so Baker hadn't even had time yet to start doing most of his outlandish behaviors. So I'm not sure what you were warned about. I think at this time the place's reputation was still pretty good because of Suzuki.
Also, Shoes Outside the Door is a highly critical and thorough account of Baker and Zen Center, so I don't understand what you mean by the author's "wanting to say something good."

The book implies that Zen Center was somehow responsible for a "foodie" revolution in the bay Area - this is an irresponsible position to take - the counter-culture was there first. The author has the time-line all wrong on these developments.

As far as the extractionand display and parade of outlandish wealth from East-Coast donors, that was what I was warned about. Excessive conspicuous consumption.

Actually, I am happy to hear that you feel the reputation is intact, that Suzuki Roshi succeeded. And Roshi Baker wasn't the only one who encountered hindrances, there are other examples. So I'm not just singling him out.

h

thanks, no I meant I thought the reputation hadn't gotten too bad in 1971 yet. Now? i dont know , some people are crit ical but a lot of people love it. for me it's just too big.

Hi Gozen,

Yes, I know how you became head priest. That is one of the reasons why my post said "most often,'" not always.

I think an interesting part of the story is the head priest returning later and acting like he owns the place. That he just assumed he was entitled to be boss and when you disagreed with him- he thought he could eject you. Then he refused to meet with you and to actually discuss the problem. That would mean seeing you as an equal. What role did he think himself holding or representing? How dead this poor fellow became in buying into his role as perhaps chief priest, a role he did not even hold. Quite a sad story, but telling.

Stuart:
Are you sort of keyed into the history of a lot of the zen centers in america?

Hi telecaster,

I know some or maybe more than most about a number of Zen centers, but do not see myself as an expert on all of them. Do you have a particular center in mind?

Hi Stuart,

Yes, the dharma combat was a scripted play. Ahead of the event where he was to answer the questions of four senior roshis, my friend was given a copy of the questions together with the answers. He told me that he just threw the paper away and improvised. As you can imagine, the old men -somehow new to the idea of spontaneity- were slightly puzzled to say the least. Our teacher felt embarrassed to see his student behave in such a bold way. Japanese face problem, as always'¦ Of course my friend's story is only funny when he talks about it, considering his personality and natural sense of humor.

What you are describing here is even more subtle. I think however that it already worked that way during the Song Dynasty, if not earlier, at least as far as the questions and poetic symbols refering to precise buddhist concepts are concerned. Nevertheless, the genuine dharma combats reported in Zen records bear the mark of a typical type of Chinese wit that cannot be imitated easily; like a Chinese is not likely to write like Oscar Wilde.

Alex

"... he just threw the paper away and improvised."

I'm finding this to be the best way to do just about everything.

Hi Alex,

Three cheers for your friend. I am surprised they did not run him out of the organization. He is supposed to be polite and play by the rules.

You wrote, "Nevertheless, the genuine dharma combats reported in Zen records bear the mark of a typical type of Chinese wit that cannot be imitated easily; like a Chinese is not likely to write like Oscar Wilde."

True, the remarks are Chinese wit. However, the copies we have are by and large not from the T'ang but later. Scholars have shown how these dialogues have been edited and redited and changed over time to represent the needs of the times and the self understanding of the sect.

"Do you have a particular center in mind?"

I do, Stuart -- The Mountains and Rivers Order and the Zen Mountain Monastery in upper New York state. I used to listen to John Daido Loori Roshi's podcasts and I know he recently passed away, which makes me sad because I enjoyed his podcasts and found them to be pointing to important things. He always seemed quite genuine from what I could sense while listening.

Edit: spelling.

"Do you have a particular center in mind?"

I don't know. For some reason "Zen" in America has always fascinated me. There was a time when I'd read everything on the subject and then I stopped for a while and now there is too much!
I remember reading the article in, I think, "New West" when it first came out that was all about the Baker scandal and it just grabbed me. And, now, of course, I've spent a lot of time on the periphery of the SFZC and have seen how a lot of it works. I'm not a zen student really, of course, but I used to try to be all the time.
So I'm always interested in SFZC and all of it's offshoots and lineages, I think the "big mind" guy is very odd and would love to know more about him and LAZC and the whole Bernie Glassman story and all their offshoots (Upaya -- what's that woman's name?) and Joko Beck and all. One of the only places where I actually had a purley good experience was at "Bay Zen Center" in Oakland run by one of Beck's students -- that teacher was cool, sweet and accessible. But there is so much more. I didn't even know about Gozan's place until now.

Mike, you should get and read the book "One Bird, One Stone" by Sean Murphy. Amazon has it in paperback and it's downloadable from Audible.com. It's a sort of oral history of Zen in America. I've listened to it a few times and found it fascinating... but a little uncritical. It's not like Stuart's writing

My most frustrating and telling SFZC experience:
My best friend in Modesto was a formal student of Norman Fischer when Fischer was the Abbott there. My friend and I arranged to go to Green Gulch on a Friday night in order to do a one day sitting all day the next day.
The big deal was that my friend was going to have "dokusan" with Fischer and he got me one too! At that point I was very excited about zen and the idea of a real student-teacher interview with a real zen master was the greatest thing ever.
So, my friend and I were in the parking lot at Green Gulch about to walk to our interviews when Fischer's "assistant" (there is a formal japanese title but I can't remember it) drove up, very fast, in a volvo. She stopped, motioned for us to come over and then pointed at my friend and said, "Your dokusan will has to happen right now and won't be long [or something like that]" Then, she pointed to me "yours is cancelled." then she drove off. Fast. Turns out there was some kind of board of directors crisis going on across the bridge at the City Center and the Abbott had to be there at a meeting to deal with all the politics. So screw Telecaster!
I wasn't very impressed.
Of course the interview was never rescheduled.