The Aitken-Shimano Letters

"Hi Gozen,

Yes, I know how you became head priest. That is one of the reasons why my post said "most often,'" not always.

I think an interesting part of the story is the head priest returning later and acting like he owns the place. That he just assumed he was entitled to be boss and when you disagreed with him- he thought he could eject you. Then he refused to meet with you and to actually discuss the problem. That would mean seeing you as an equal. What role did he think himself holding or representing? How dead this poor fellow became in buying into his role as perhaps chief priest, a role he did not even hold. Quite a sad story, but telling.

"

Hi Stuart,
Yes, I was aware that you knew my story because you and I had spoken by phone about it some time ago. I just wanted everyone else to know. I did not mean to imply that you were tarring everyone with the same brush. Please excuse me if I gave that impression.

The other priest had been made a roshi (another meaningless title, at least around here). That's one reason why he thought he owned the place. He also mistook the politeness and respect I showed toward him as indicating his superiority.

Last of all -- and this applies everywhere in life: Power accrues to those who exercise it. If a person simply shows up somewhere, starts giving orders, and people follow those orders -- then he's in charge.

"If a person simply shows up somewhere, starts giving orders, and people follow those orders -- then he's in charge."

Hi, Gozen.

Yep. Deserving or not, the person with the gumption to do that will be the "leader." This is why I believe, at least in the business world, it's never a good idea to just follow along. If nothing else start asking questions - lots of questions - so that person knows they don't have free reign.

hi everyone,

as a alluded to in 17, in spite of the buyer beware comment, i think some of the saddest outcomes are the students who truely are compassionate, motivated and putting in the time about thier practice are often deluded about where they are, where they need to go and how to get there.

i have seen a number of instances where the student has been unsuccessful about a Koan for months to years, does not get the proper amount/kind of reinforcement, personalizes his/her lack of comparative progress, and suffers for prolonged times. Are these people abused? Not outright, but in some aspects the teacher has to be sensitive enough to differentiate who needs noncompartmentalized individual care. In medicine we say "above all, do no harm"

tim

Two things come to mind as I survey this thread and the link. One is the movie from Korea "Why did Bodhidharma Come From the West?" the other is Red Pine's translation Stonehouse - in both instances the followers kept at arms length from the teacher, not intentionally, but due to the BS-free nature of the teacher.

But it is also a tension between hermit tradition and sangha tradition, which in Chinese Ch'an and Korean Seon are consdiered valid paths. Elsewhere this is not possible due to ecclesiatical structure, maybe social orientation, but I am reminded of how much vitriolic language was used against solitary practicioners in the early Buddhist era - there is this propaganda against and it is worth looking at the historical forces against. This is paralleled in early Christianity and eventually leads to the nearly total demise of contemplative practice in a faith community which was based initially on contemplative practice.

You have these same kinds of tensions played out in many contexts in Japanese Zen too, most notably the virtual sainthood of Cold Mountain, who had a very piquant view of the monks, but also in Zen master Bassui who refused to associate with monks in any way and went in directly asking for dharma transmission.

This tension between individualism and ecclesiastical order is a misunderstood topic and one of the reasons why western Buddhism is being given a negative prognosis. I don't think that view takes into account either early Buddhism or Buddhas own life story, which I feel is meant as a template for practice. In other words, being an island.

Who gives western Buddhism a negative prognosis?

Hi cmarti and all,

I am away now in Montreal for the annual American Academy of Religion conference. It is pretty busy so I may not have a chance to reply this week, until next Saturday or Sunday. But I will reply then or shortly thereafter.

The discussion has been terrific in my opinion - I have thoroughly enjoyed every ones comments, related stories, and the like.

I am sorry I am interrupted just now.

Thank you all,

Stuart

"Hi cmarti and all,

I am away now in Montreal for the annual American Academy of Religion conference. It is pretty busy so I may not have a chance to reply this week, until next Saturday or Sunday. But I will reply then or shortly thereafter.

The discussion has been terrific in my opinion - I have thoroughly enjoyed every ones comments, related stories, and the like.

I am sorry I am interrupted just now.

Thank you all,

Stuart



"

Hi Stuart,
I look forward to your comments. Also, I hope that you attend the "TRANSHUMANISM AND RELIGION CONSULTATION" at the AAR conference today, November 7, 2009 from 1-3:30 pm. I'd like to hear a first-hand report of what goes on there.

Regards,
Gozen

Part 1

I have found this discussion very helpful too. I consider myself very fortunate to have been able to make use of and see through many institutions that use power in hidden ways.

I'm currently, and have been for couple of years, head of a zen center. In our lineage becoming a priest requires more than 10 years of practice with few years as a novice. I haven't been practicing long enough to become one (only about 6 years), but I know that in some other lineages I would have been easily lifted as a priest/monk. Actually I have one friend in some other lineage that was appointed as a priest just by travelling to a Japan for a weekend. So the practices variate greatly between the lineages.

Anyway, I have been involved with the 12 step movement (ACoA) previously and was active member for many years. It is also an institution that advertises itself to be free from dogma and religion - just like buddhism and particularly zen buddhism seems to do. I was pretty critical for some things that happened in that 12 step society already few years, and even struggled to stop some narcistic abusers I saw there, but only by having few months of separation to that society I realized just how much of a cult is really was. It was pretty scary to understand how much the society affects the norms and thoughts I hold myself. I basically understood that I was a cult member without even realizing it. I was even reqruiting new members and having some respected positions in the service structure of that fellowship. And in that society I was , among few others, seen as "spiritually awakened" person, as the 12th step suggest. Fortunately that was something I didn't like very much and I struggled from the beginning to get people to understand that I'm not anything special. Some others liked that status very much and took advantage of it by abusing newcomers etc and I fought against that kind of behaviour several years.

Part 2

Nowadays I understand that 12 step movement is based on the teachings of fundamentalist Christian "Oxford"-group. There are some great books written about it like www.morerevealed.com/library/mr/newmr_0.jsp

So it was a matter of 1) first seeing something that was against that was said in the institution, 2) then reading some critical and intelligent writings about the dynamics and usage of dogma in the group and 3) lastly distancing myself from the group to get more objective viewpoint - when I really understood what kind of society I was really a part of.

Now I have actually been able to do that same thing with zen buddhism too. I must say that in the lineage where I practice I really haven't seen any abuse going on. However, the usage of dharma transmission and all the other ritualistic ways of supporting the sensei's role and the tradition are being used. This is potentially very harmful thing as it means that something like what has been happening in the US could easily happen here too.

I'm currently in a process where I observe our tradition very critically and also have brought up discussions in some forums. I hope that these discussions will educate people not to stumble in the same holes that many of the zen centers in US have done. I'm not sure how long will I continue to practice in the lineage - or whether I will continue to practice zazen either. Currently I still do and still lead that center but I have very contradictory feelings about all of these ceremonies and stuff.

Anyway, I that Stuart and others that have brought these things in the discussions.

Part 3

And then some thoughts about business world. I've been able to advance in my career for these past few years so that I'm nowadays part of a leadership team of 200 people org. I have been able to see very closely how the promotions and the power usage happens in business. Actually I was just part of one group of leaders where we travelled to different sites and countries to discuss with local teams & leaders. In that group I was clearly the junior member as the others had positions in the leadership team of 1500 people org - it was kind of a way for me to show my talent in that kind of group and so I took it. But it was very funny to see how the boss of the leaders (actually my bosses boss) tried to build distance with me and the others. I wasn't invited all the dinners they had f.ex. It was such a school-book example of retaining hierarchical power. For me it was just funny because I have been studying these things in practice in those traditions and by books. When you wake up to see what is really happening it's just so obvious that you have to just laugh inside: "How can people not see these things clearly?" And then when I remember how blind I have been with 12 step movement and zen traditions it just seems unbelievable.

Actually it was Zen practice that lead me to see the 12 step movement so clearly. I had a chance to meditate on these things and examine how "spiritually awakened" I really was in the eyes of an outside spiritual tradition. And what lead me to see the things in Zen were the books and writings by Brian Victoria, Stuart Lachs and others. However, I think that my previous experiences with 12 step fellowship allowed this process to happen quicker.

I'm not saying these traditions haven't been helpful to me. It just seems that there is a limit of how much they can help you before the institution becomes actually a hinder for your growth.

Hi Kundun,
Thanks for sharing your observations with us.

It seems to me that the sort of hierarchical politics of dominance that occurs among our animal friends (especially the great apes) is not too far different from what human beings do. We are special...but not THAT special! People compete for food, mates and social rank just like chimps do. We fool ourselves if we think this happens only in business and does not happen in "spiritual" organizations. It goes on everywhere.

What makes spiritual groups different is the idealism of the members. They really want to believe "It's different here." Well, no it's not. The bigger the spiritual organization, the more it functions like a business. Or an empire.

Regards,
Gozen

Whenever two or more are gathered for a common purpose .... there will be politics. Guaranteed.

"What makes spiritual groups different is the idealism of the members. They really want to believe "It's different here." Well, no it's not. The bigger the spiritual organization, the more it functions like a business. Or an empire."

No kidding! And which truth, of course, makes spiritual and religious organizations potentially more dangerous to their members, not less.

Hi Telecaster,

The Baker scandal is quite interesting- not for the prurient aspect but for seeing how 'dis-oriented' Zen groups and leaders can get, that is, in spite of their supposed great insight and understanding. Too, for all the talk of selflessness, Baker sure looked pretty much concerned with himself, his desires and his position and power- too bad for you. I strongly recommend reading 'Shoes Outside the Door,' by Michael Downing to see how crazy things got. I think it an outstanding book. I wrote a paper (Richard Baker and the Myth of the Zen roshi) based on the book but giving more background and analysis which Downing avoided.

Dennis Merzil is the founder of Big Mind. He was with Maezumi at the LAZC but I forget whether he is an heir of Glassman or Maezumi. Merzil was invited to Bar Harbor, Maine back in the 1980's to take over a group. I have heard the woman who invited him had been sexually molested when young and that Merzil had a reputation for womanizing. She was cautious about having him lead the group and asked him about his womanizing reputation. He said that was in his past. Unfortunately it turned out not to be past and the group fell apart and I assume his marriage was not helped by all of this. Merzil left rather quickly, leaving many members feeling upset and abandoned. There was some question of money and who got it? Merzil went to, I think Portland but another Maezumi heir, Jan Bays, was already there and resented him being in the same town. Somewhere he divorced, remarried, and moved to Salt Lake.

Glassman is another story I'd rather leave a lone for now. Lets leave it at a number of people have 'played' to him to receive the golden ring, dharma transmission.

If you liked "Bay Zen Center" and its teacher, that sounds like the place for you.

All the best,

Stuart

Hi highdesirelowability,

I think you made some very good and relevant points here. Another factor to mention is teachers who need to feel much higher than their students and how this creeps into their message and style. Often the the students cannot recognize what is happening, and it is hard to recognize once one is deep into the teacher and Zen lore and mythology. The students while near worshipping the teacher are being undermined royally without knowing what is happening. Zen mythology playsd perfectly into the hands of this type of teacher as the teacher does not have to make claims for his own attainment because Zen mythology does it for him. I think it is the underlying Zen duplicity.

Stuart

Amazing, Stuart. So now I'll ask the question that this topic begs:

What is the root of this? Does leading a religious group somehow lead to the unwanted (usually sexual) behavior, or do those with tendencies toward unwanted sexual behavior end up leading religious groups in unrepresentative numbers? I would love to see a valid statistical study performed that would compare the incidence of sexual misbehavior among religious leaders to that of politicians and the chief executive officers of large businesses. Or is this just news to me due to my naivete?

Merzel - doesn't he have an ongoing feud with Brad Warner over the efficacy of the Big Mind process?

Hi han2sen,

I think your pointing to the tension between solitary practice and sangha tradition is well taken. I don't think they are necessarily mutually exclusive, though more and more it appears that way to me, at least in Japanese Zen in the west.

As an example, ask long term Zen practitioners if they have ever done a week long sesshin/retreat or longer on their own. Most in the Japanese tradition I have found say no- while astoundingly to me, they seem surprised at the very thought of it and if pressed, lost at how to do it. My feeling is that their teachers have undermined them in some fundamental way by not getting them, by them I mean experienced practitioners, to at least for some extended period to practice on their own. I am NOT saying leave the group or the teacher, but only to develop the confidence, ability and the taste of intense practice on your own.

I think it may be some what different in the Korean Soen tradition.

Stuart

Hi cmarti,

Yes Merzil and Brad Warner have "an ongoing feud". I think Warner called Merzil "a scumbag" among other endearing words. I think it is related to Merzil's Big Mind rap and business.

Indeed, this topic "begs" your question.

I think to a large extent, Gozen aside, Zen leaders have pushed hard to get to their positions of leadership and the inherent authority and power that goes with it because of Zen mythology, pretty much endlessly repeated. The power of this mythology as repeated by institutions, teachers, books, in talks, ... should never be underestimated. It is so strong that even as Baker was carrying on and treating people like ****, he was still viewed as enlightened because he received the blessing of Suzuki along with the words that this is a "real transmission. " These words from Shunryu Suzuki roshi over rode what people were feeling and seeing in front of their noses! So like politicians and business people that want and work to get power, Zen people are not so different. I would guess we are to some extent hard wired to take advantage of positions of power to serve our own interests. Why fight to get it, if you will not use it; only the very rare person is that way.

Statistics would be interesting to see, but need to be looked at with some care. Years ago there was an abbreviation, GIGO for some statistics, especially as it applied to large number crunching. GIGO stood for "Garbage In Garbage Out."

I would say we were all naive at one point. I certainly was, but I ain't no more!

Stuart

"...I think to a large extent, Gozen aside, Zen leaders have pushed hard to get to their positions of leadership and the inherent authority and power that goes with it because of Zen mythology, pretty much endlessly repeated. The power of this mythology as repeated by institutions, teachers, books, in talks, ... should never be underestimated. . . . So like politicians and business people that want and work to get power, Zen people are not so different. I would guess we are to some extent hard wired to take advantage of positions of power to serve our own interests. Why fight to get it, if you will not use it; only the very rare person is that way."

Hi Stuart,
Yes, yes. We are in complete agreement here. If I had not "stumbled into" my position of authority, I don't think I would have sought it out. Frankly, it's a lot of work! While I do have something to teach, which puts me on a different level from my students, I am continually trying to undermine that hierarchy by joking around with people and apologizing whenever I make a mistake. When I begin my Dharma talks, I eschew the traditional litany about the Buddha-Dharma and simply say "Thank you all for coming. I'm glad we had this opportunity to practice together."

Nevertheless, I see people treating me with more deference than I think I deserve. So I can see how easy it would be to exploit them. What's more, I think you are correct that human beings are hard-wired (genetically predisposed) to do exactly that. It would be quite easy to develop a "selfish-gene" argument for why such exploitative behavior would tend to perpetuate itself, along with the genes behind it. But I'll leave that to Richard Dawkins.

Regards,
Gozen

"
What is the root of this? Does leading a religious group somehow lead to the unwanted (usually sexual) behavior, or do those with tendencies toward unwanted sexual behavior end up leading religious groups in unrepresentative numbers? I would love to see a valid statistical study performed that would compare the incidence of sexual misbehavior among religious leaders to that of politicians and the chief executive officers of large businesses. Or is this just news to me due to my naivete?

Merzel - doesn't he have an ongoing feud with Brad Warner over the efficacy of the Big Mind process?

"


Hi Chris,

Brad Warner vs Denis Genpo Merzel: The problem started when Genpo started advertising his Big Mind Process as granting immediate Satori and even Annutara Samyak Sambodhi (the Buddha's perfect enlightenment) turning the whole Buddhist path into a joke. Brad Warner broke the popular Zen teacher's omerta in an article published on the Suicide Girls' website where he openly made fun of this stupid claim. So the issue here is not to question the relative efficacy of a psychological process, but to put it into proper perspective. In this respect, I fully support Brad Warner even if I don't always agree with him. What I can see is that mainstream Western Zen has become a Big Business Process over the years, with its share of unfair competition.

As to sexual misbehavior in relation with leadership positions, I don't have statistics, but based on my experience and limited knowledge of evolution theory it sounds like an obvious fact. It is not only that men take advantage of their position, but also that women are hardwired to be (often unconsciously) attracted by the leaders of men. It's a kind of "I want the man who is admired by other men". A few pop-science books like 'Red Queen', 'The Selfish Gene' or 'Sperm Wars' can be a good introduction to the fascinating subject.

Yeah, I don't think there is too great a mystery surrounding this kind of behaviour. We are all very instinctually driven beings and these forces are present with us at all times. If we observe ourselves in daily life, we will see that we are constantly mediating drives of an instinctual nature across all domains of human experience - there is constant temptation for easy, instant gratification in taking advantage of the circumstance we find ourselves in; and that gratification is especially easy and instant when we find ourselves in positions of power and status; especially when it is persistent through time, and our resolve is tested - who among us will not give in to one degree or another. It depends on how subtle you want to get. It's a continuum with extremes so subtle, to the most blatant abuses of power and disregard of human rights.

Whenever we encounter social interactions and relationships, we can see our ethical geiger counter jump all over the place; generally, I walk a line in the acceptable range of the continuum, sometimes, I fall completely off the wagon. Everyone does; no surprise there, really.

In kind regards,

Adam.

Thanks for the low-down on Brad, Alex! I've been following his work, and the Big-mind saga, for a while now; interesting guy.

"Yeah, I don't think there is too great a mystery surrounding this kind of behaviour. We are all very instinctually driven beings and these forces are present with us at all times. If we observe ourselves in daily life, we will see that we are constantly mediating drives of an instinctual nature across all domains of human experience - there is constant temptation for easy, instant gratification in taking advantage of the circumstance we find ourselves in; and that gratification is especially easy and instant when we find ourselves in positions of power and status; especially when it is persistent through time, and our resolve is tested - who among us will not give in to one degree or another. It depends on how subtle you want to get. It's a continuum with extremes so subtle, to the most blatant abuses of power and disregard of human rights.

Whenever we encounter social interactions and relationships, we can see our ethical geiger counter jump all over the place; generally, I walk a line in the acceptable range of the continuum, sometimes, I fall completely off the wagon. Everyone does; no surprise there, really.

In kind regards,

Adam."

Well said! Very well said!

This should be said often.

From a summary of *The Happiness Hypothesis* by Jonathan Haidt:

"'For what the flesh desires is opposed to the Spirit, and what the Spirit desires is opposed to the flesh... '(St. Paul)

"The mind is divided in many ways, but the division that really matters is between conscious/reasoned processes and automatic/implicit processes. These two parts are like a rider on the back of an elephant. The rider's inability to control the elephant by force explains many puzzles about our mental life, particularly why we have such trouble with weakness of will. Learning how to train the elephant is the secret of self-improvement."

www.happinesshypothesis.com/chapters.html

Stuart:
Thanks. I've read "Shoes outside the door" and your paper and was fascinated by both.
Thanks for the info on Merzil. I'm completely on Warner's side on him, along with Ken Wilbur and that guy with the "holosync," or whatever. It's just so creepy.
Bay Zen, I don't want to be a zen student really, but Diane Rizzeto does seem honest and real.
I could talk about all this forever, even though, like I said, I am not a zen student, there is something about "american zen" from about 1960 on that fascinates me to no end.