Silent Illumination and Hua-Tou

Part 3

I think it best to say that the Korean and Japanese styles of practices are different. If any thing, the Korean monastic way seems close to the older Chinese system more than the Japanese system. Robert Buswell has written a fine book describing Korean monastic practice. His book on Chinul is a real gem for any Chan/Zen practitioner.

I would be careful about using expressions like 'classical Tang Dynasty Ch'an practice' as most of what is known of Tang Dynasty Chan is Sung Dynasty Chan projections backwards. For instance, Albert Welter, a Canadian scholar who has done much work on Lin-chi (Rinzai) talks of Lin-chi as being a historical development over time- showing the development over time of different versions of the Lin-chi lu. Earlier versions lack the kind of colorful language and gestures of later versions. This is not to say there is not fine teaching in these stories, but whether the historical person we call Lin-chi spoke and acted that way is another story.

I have not read Sheng-yen's "Shattering the Great Doubt" or many of his books. They are not really written by him, but taken mostly from talks, transcribed, edited and reedited by a number of people. Rarely in the past anyway, did they go back to the original tapes. I find 'his' books hard to read. I do remember him instructing people to do "direct contemplation", which I remember was comprised of looking at some thing without labeling it. Non-abiding mind is an idea that I do not believe is limited to Hui-neng, or original to him, but was around in China, most likely at least with the Taoists. Non-abiding mind I think has become integral to Zen over time.

All the best,

Stuart

Hi Staurt,
Thanks so much for your helpful correction to my statement about whether retreats and monastic environments were better for hua-tuo practice than ordinary life with a regular meditation schedule. And, as always, we learn much from your erudition. Reading your postings (and essays) is like attending a good graduate seminar.

Regarding practice, in one message you wrote:

"You just do not know what the next moment of meditation will be, or for that matter, of daily life will be."

Exactly. So no matter where we are or what the time, practice is always possible, and we cannot foretell how that practice opportunity will develop or whether a similar opportunity will ever appear again.

Regards,
Gozen

Part1.

Hi Stuart,

I like your expression 'owning one's practice' and think that it is fundamental. What I meant by 'intense' was in fact 'martial'. What I meant is that the environment and close contact with the roshi plays a big part in Japanese Rinzai Zen, while Chinese or Korean meditation practice is certainly as intense but does not require a boot camp atmosphere like it seems to be the case in Japan. I have always been lucky to pick very mild Zen teachers. I remember that my first Japanese teacher could not bear any form of brutality in the name of Buddhism.

Yes, I have read Robert Buswell's excellent book 'The Zen monastic experience' years back. And of course, his book 'Tracing Back the Radiance' is just brilliant! Talking with Chinese monks, I found that Korea played a role in restoring the Chinese Ch'an tradition in the late 80's early 90's and some Chinese monks often perfect their training in Korea. Same happened in the past the other way round.

Part 2.

What you are saying about Tang Zen being a Song Zen backward projection strikes my interest. I am looking forward to read Albert Welter's 'Linji Lu' paper that I just downloaded from the Web. What I meant is actually 'non-abiding' as a form of practice in relation with the Platform Sutra, the Awakening of Faith Shastra or Zongmi's analysis of Tang dynasty schools, to mention a few reliable late Tang sources. Thank you for your explanation and comments. They corroborate what I found in other sources last night, including a French book from a student of Xu Yun's dharma heir abbot of Bailin temple, Zhaozhou county.

One of my neuroses is what we could call a 21st century backward projection of Tang Zen. There are a few historical sources, including the Hwashan Mahayana - Kamalasila debate Tibetan sources and various comments from Nyingma scholars who stood for Ch'an against Indian gradual Buddhism (in order to defend their own point of view against Gelug orthodoxy I suppose). Historians and advanced practitioners like Nan huai-chin are also very helpful.

Part. 3
Hi Gozen,

Thank you for directing us back to practice proper, while reminding me in a way that life is short.

Since the subject of the thread includes 'Silent Illumination' and therefore its Japanese 'Just Sitting' adaptation, it might be interesting to hear more about the method that you have used with great success. What I find interesting is to see how Shikantaza apparently follows the Vipassana stages of insight, as well as how those who have practiced shikantaza for years -or are interested by the approach- might benefit from the practice instead of stagnating for years like many of my Soto friends.

Kind regards to all,

Alex

Hi Alex,
You wrote:
ALEX: Since the subject of the thread includes 'Silent Illumination' and therefore its Japanese 'Just Sitting' adaptation, it might be interesting to hear more about the method that you have used with great success. What I find interesting is to see how Shikantaza apparently follows the Vipassana stages of insight, as well as how those who have practiced shikantaza for years -or are interested by the approach- might benefit from the practice instead of stagnating for years like many of my Soto friends.

GOZEN: Yes, OK.

Shikantaza had been my practice for many years. When I found Daniel's book ["Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha"] I was able to see that the stages of insight also appeared in my practice, even though I had not always recognized them previously. Looking back, I could retrospectively account for many events in my practice by mapping them to the stages of insight. Daniel's book and webpage also provided a very useful view of the three trainings and a refreshingly realistic picture of Arahantship.

Many people have unrealistic '“ and therefore unhelpful or unskillful '“ views of the three trainings. They imagine that a person must become morally perfect, a master of all meditation states, and infinitely wise before he or she can Awaken. This is not true. A person only needs to become moral enough, and develop a sufficient level of concentration ability, in order to engage the practice of inquiry to the point of understanding the true nature of experience and one's own actual identity.

Experience is merely the patterning of the underlying Reality in ways that are determined by proximate and other causal factors.

Identity is not dependent upon experience at all.

Part 2
I referred to "proximate and other causal factors" in order to indicate that the patterns of experience (sensation, perception, etc.) may arise due to present circumstances or due to causal factors from a much earlier in time, even from previous births.

This brings me to the most complicated topic. I came to see that the first training, morality or ethics or discipline, is different from '“ and more important than '“ I had first believed. Daniel wrote that "Morality is the first and the last training." When I first read that, I understood it to mean that even Arahants must take care to behave properly. That is true, but there is more. Our karmic load is tied to our backs by strands of moral challenge.

My total practice did not yield Awakening until I had settled my own issues in the key relationships of my life. When I finally gave up struggling for personal satisfaction in every case, and turned my efforts toward showing compassion and kindness to others, then a crucial obstacle was removed. (That's a sufficient general description. The details I do not give here are about the personality type of this body-mind. Until I fully recognized my particular "ego fixation" in every step of its typical dynamic cycling, I could not break free of it.)

But there was still one more obstacle in my path: the desire for Awakening. Giving that up without giving that up is a conundrum that cannot be explained logically. In my case, however, things were a bit simpler. In the year 2007, after having pursued one spiritual path or another since 1972, I no longer had any hope of Enlightenment in this life. I was feeling old. So, without any great effort or intention, I simply surrendered the hope. But I continued to practice anyway.

Then, when I least expected it'¦Awakening.

Part 3
Here is what I wrote in my journal after Awakening:

* * *
"For some days I had been deeply immersed in the Current, the flow of energy that pervades the body with gentle bliss and well-being. Then one morning in late August, before leaving the house for work, I turned my attention to inquiring into the nature of this, ALL this, including the Current, myself and 'all and everything.' This was not an explicitly worded question, but it was something along the lines of 'What is this?'

"The next moment was empty. That is to say, there was the briefest time of no experience whatsoever. This was followed by another brief moment of blackness that resolved itself into the ordinary room before me, with the visual resolution occurring in a manner somewhat like a movie scene transition in which a black screen begins filling in from the edges toward the center, with it ending in a black dot that disappears.

"At the same time, I "knew" with unshakable conviction the answer. This was tacit, non-verbal knowledge. It was not a voice or a communication from some 'other.' I knew what all this was and who I Am."
* * *

As you can see, I had spontaneously engaged with a traditional koan or hua-tuo, but without any premeditated plan. It was simply the question I wondered about in that moment. I really wanted to know! And then'¦I knew. Beyond doubt. Beyond question.

This happened while practicing on my own, without the present guidance of a teacher, although with the benefit of having studied with and read the works of some very good teachers. If asked to characterize my practice, I would call it "stumble-bum, wild-west Zen." My practice history was not the kind that looks good on a resume! It was my own slow, halting, terribly inefficient way along the Path.

Yet somehow it was enough.

"But there was still one more obstacle in my path: the desire for Awakening."

This just landed on me like a ton of bricks. This is a very beautiful thread. Thank you all for it.

Part 1

Hi cmarti,

Glad you are enjoying the thread. You wrote,'
"But there was still one more obstacle in my path: the desire for Awakening."
This just landed on me like a ton of bricks. This is a very beautiful thread. Thank you all for it.'

This 'desire for Awakening' is a tricky part of Zen practice. I think people doing shikantaza and silent illumination see it one way and those doing hua-tou and koans another way. It may be more of a problem in the h-t/ koan case. At anyrate, I would like to reply from my understanding in the h-t/koan case.

Earlier in thread I spoke of the three greats; Great Faith, Great Energy or Determination and Great Doubt. So in this practice there is a need to have faith in the method, faith in your self to practice the method, and faith in your own Buddha nature. You must also be determined to understand or see through the h-t. By just sitting back and wishing for this to happen while sitting back and waiting for this to happen, will not work. You must put in energy and be determined to understand the h-t.

Part 2
Essentially you want to be awakened. This desire to see who you are and to understand yourself is a desire for awakening. But this very desire will get in your way if you think about it and dwell on it. So it kind of requires a mental judo of sorts. Once you develop this desire and start to practice, you have to forget this desire. You must only concentrate on the h-t. The h-t must become your only concern. With most people at times as the h-t develops energy the thought will arise 'oh, I am getting near awakening' or some thing like that. But you must learn to dismiss this type of thinking as quickly as possible. This may happen many times but each time you have to drop it immediately and just concentrate on the h-t. If you cannot drop the thought of awakening, it will always stop you! So though the thought of awakening can be helpful in firing up your determination and developing energy to practice, this thought can also be a great block and problem to the practice. In fact, if you do not learn to dismiss this thought, or not pay attention to this thought, it will stop you. But practitioners for roughly a thousand years have been forgetting this thought of awakening and practiced the h-t to fruition. It is possible for us to do this too. It is possible for you to do this.

As with many elements of practice, they can be a double edged sword. Learning to handle it and use it wisely, is a great help, perhaps a necessity.

I hope this is helpful.

All the best,

Stuart

That is very helpful, Stuart. I'm 53 and I've been doing, acting, thinking and pretending to control the universe for at least that long. I'm just beginning to start to be able to see that a desire, a doing, an action of any kind can be a hindrance. This is completely new territory for me, this radical "letting go." Thanks for the enouragement. I will need it.

"@Gozen: It was my own slow, halting, terribly inefficient way along the Path.
"

By these standards I a categorical disaster!

[edit] My comment on this post doesn't convey my intent well. With excellent advice it is suprising how long it has taken to get some simple points. To get things "together" before the www would not have been an easy task.

Thank you for sharing your great experience Gozen. This is very rare in the Soto school. It would be interesting to see how the understanding of the Theravada map has also helped. Looking back on it, it is difficult to see what has been the determining factor. When the fruit is ripe, it just falls. The idea of shikantaza is to drop all efforts and clinging to let the original nature shine on its own. However, being able to really let go off all efforts and clinging is almost always the result of years of dedicated practice.

As I see it, the hua-tou method is indirect. The goal is not directly to reach enlightenment but to solve a riddle. After a certain stage, the hua-tou seems to sink deeply through the unconscious mind to ultimately reach and turn over the storehouse consciousness (alayavijnana).

I find it in a way similar to methods to induce lucid dreaming. While dreaming, we cannot awaken from the dream through a willful effort, since we have forgotten our awakened self. However, if throughout the day we make it a habit of doubting the reality of everyday life saying "I am dreaming?" followed by reality checks, the doubt will sink into the unconscious and start generating spontaneous lucid dreams after a month or two of dedicated practice. Here also the three conditions are faith in the method, dedicated practice and doubt. It is not the only method, but it seems to work faster than learning to fall asleep without losing consciousness, as a passive witness.

Of course, I am not talking about lucid dreaming here, but I see it as a good analogy.

Hi cmarti,

You wrote,
'That is very helpful, Stuart. I'm 53 and I've been doing, acting, thinking and pretending to control the universe for at least that long. I'm just beginning to start to be able to see that a desire, a doing, an action of any kind can be a hindrance. This is completely new territory for me, this radical "letting go." Thanks for the enouragement. I will need it.'

Taking control has a place in life. My guess is it has served you well in many areas. But, it can be a hindrance in certain circumstance and areas. The h-t practice calls for you to look at the h-t with a doubting or unknowing or enquiring mind without thinking that you will give it an answer. Rather look for the h-t to answer you. If you look to answer, your discursive mind will keep generating answers. This will stop the doubt from taking hold and growing. It is necessary to let go in that sense, to give in to the doubt and let it grow, so that it becomes alive, becomes vital, and continues on its own, with you staying along on the ride, questioning and enquiring deeper and with more determination and concern. It will in time become alive and of vital concern to you. All other thoughts and concerns will drop away. All your doubts will collapse into this one , very alive doubt. This may seem scary- that you will fall into a black hole- be gone forever- YIKES- but don't worry- you will not. It may however seem like that , but it will not. Immediately dismiss any answer that may arise or any other thought no matter how subtle, caring, compassionate, logical, '¦. whatever-dismiss anything that will distract you from the h-t, which may be fear. Learn to stay with the rising-growing - alive doubt. This is how the method works.

You can do it as have countless numbers of other people. It takes some patience and being gentle with your self as you enter new territory and adjust to exploring a new way.

Stuart

Hi Alex,

You wrote, 'As I see it, the hua-tou method is indirect. The goal is not directly to reach enlightenment but to solve a riddle. After a certain stage, the hua-tou seems to sink deeply through the unconscious mind to ultimately reach and turn over the storehouse consciousness (alayavijnana).'

As I understand the h-t , the goal if we may speak this way, is definitely NOT to solve a riddle, but rather, exactly to reach enlightenment. The goal so to speak, is only to see your true nature, who you are, enlightenment! This is a funny way of talking but we need words here. If you look to the h-t as a riddle, I think you will be wasting your time and energy. The h-t should be viewed as asking about the very core of your existence- who you are- what is life'¦. Like that. It is not a riddle or a game.

In time and with practice, the h-t needs to and will take on a life and energy and vitality that will call for great determination and great concern for knowing. If you think it is only a riddle, I fear you will back away when you enter strange new territory that may have some scary aspects to it. The h-t is about the very core of your being- who you are- life'¦.

All the best,

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

I fully agree with you. Thank you for rectifying what could have been a source of misunderstanding. What I wanted to say is that we do not have to worry about being goal oriented while using a hua-tou, because the method is indirect. One is not asked to focus on the thought like 'I want to get enlightened', but on a paradox aimed at creating a feeling of doubt. Gradually, the doubt is not only related to the case itself, but becomes our great existential question. I also feel that it works on a much deeper level, sinking deeply through the unconscious mind. The process leading to the transformation of Alayavijnana has been described in a rather technical manner by Hakuin.
Now should one change hua-tou if the one chosen initially does not generate sufficient doubt, or is it preferable to keep the same hua-tou and let the doubt become stronger with time?

Kind regards,

Alex

Part 1

Hi Alex,

You wrote,' we do not have to worry about being goal oriented while using a hua-tou, because the method is indirect. One is not asked to focus on the thought like 'I want to get enlightened', but on a paradox aimed at creating a feeling of doubt. Gradually, the doubt is not only related to the case itself, but becomes our great existential question.'

I believe what you wrote above is true never the less, the goal MUST be forgotten as one enters deeper into the practice.. If the goal in any way comes back to your mind, it will stop the doubt development. One should get into the habit of dismissing thoughts and self reflection quickly. As you enter deeper into the practice, thoughts and self reflection can and at times will seem more profound, more tasty, more subtle, than in normal times and so will have a strong draw.

I would also suggest forgetting the word paradox. Just examine the h-t single mindedly with a questioning mind. Keep examining and asking with no space between your questioning. Try to let go with no place to put your legs- just question '“continue asking without a break.

Part 2

You also asked,' should one change hua-tou if the one chosen initially does not generate sufficient doubt, or is it preferable to keep the same hua-tou and let the doubt become stronger with time?'

The way you stated the question, you assume any hua-tou is as good as any other for a given person. I am not sure that is true, though other people do think this way. I think what you want is a h-t that you feel close to in some way. The doubt may not come quickly even though you feel close to it or if it resonates with you. This is not necessarily a quick and easy practice. Raising the doubt sensation and letting grow to become a live and vital doubt is not as easy as it may seem upon hearing about the method. So you have to give the h-t some time. The answer to your question is not easy. If you feel too distant or if the h-t you picked seems cold or not to resonate with you, then pick another one that seems closer to you. But please, be patient. It is not easy to raise the doubt. I also do not think you should be changing the h-t every few days because you are having trouble raising the doubt. Be patient and slowly and in a relaxed fashion examine the h-t. It will eventually come alive.

Though the literature talks about instant enlightenment, this does not mean that you reach this state instantly or quickly. It mostly takes a long time and much work and effort. That is mostly, not in all cases. In reality we should practice earnestly and with determination; we do not know what the next moment will bring.

All the best,

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Thank you very much for clarifying these issues. I realize that I was still influenced by precious practice with the Japanese koan system, in the sense that I was making a pause between each questioning to listen to the silence after each questioning. What I understand now is that best is to ask with no space between one's questioning.

In his book "The Lighthouse in the Ocean of Chan, C.M. Chen also says:" concentrated thoughts on the hua-tou should follow one another like arrows shot up in the sky; if one by one they do not touch or come close to the preceding one, all the arrows will fall down. Therefore, one by one, they should be tightly close to one another so as not to allow any other idea to come in-between. This is the very secret of the method".

This is the correct way, right? It does feel different practicing in this way. I would say that it feels more like reciting a mantra in the beginning, but with a questioning mind. It seems that the thought of the question goes on, on its own, while the questioning gets deeper into the real meaning of the question beyond thoughts. I don't know if what I am saying here makes, sense as it is difficult to express. Anyway, don't hesitate to correct me if I get it wrong.

Your answer to the second question (picking or changing hua-tou) was very good. Thank you.

Kind regards,

Alex

Hi Alex,

Glad to hear that my words were helpful. It is also good to hear that they agree with C.M. Chen as you quoted. It is the standard Chinese way of practicing the hua-tou.

Though at first the h-t certainly may feel like a mantra in that it has the aspect of holding thoughts a way, the emphasis should be on the sense of questioning or doubting or enquiring. I think you are getting the hang of it. Please remember to keep asking with the sense that the h-t will answer you, not the other way around. I would also suggest dropping "the real meaning of the question beyond thoughts." Just keep asking -let go -with no place to stand.

All the best,

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

Yes, I am starting to get the hang of it and realize once more the necessity of a close contact with an experienced practitioner or teacher. Even if there are excellent books around (including some not available for the general public like the one mentioned above), one can easily overlook a particular passage, while assuming that we get it right based on earlier experience with a similar yet different method. I see also that this continual questioning might seem sililar to a mantra, but does coupled with an investigating mind, generates a bona fide sense of wonderment or doubt.

Thank again,

Alex

Hi Alex,

It sounds like you are indeed getting the hang of it. Just to expand a bit on my comment from one reply ago, "I would also suggest dropping 'the real meaning of the question beyond thoughts." The statement, "the real meaning of the question beyond thoughts" is another thought that we create ourselves with, define ourselves and place our selves in the world. It is just these kind of ideas and thoughts and feelings that will pop into our mind and distract us from the h-t and the doubt. We must truly let go of everything we hold onto, 100% everything, no matter how subtle and refined it may appear and only enter the h-t and the doubt.

All the best,

Stuart

Hi Stuart,

"We must truly let go of everything we hold onto, 100% everything, no matter how subtle and refined it may appear and only enter the h-t and the doubt." Great advice - thank you.

I have a day off today, reading Morten Schluetter's "How Zen Became Zen" that I have just received from Amazon. I will first drop my son at his Chinese school before dropping everything else to enter the hua-tou and the doubt in a Taiwanese temple not far if they let me sit in their Ch'an Hall for an hour or two.

Kind regards,

Alex

Hi Alex,

In reality, practicing the h-t is really simple, it is just quite hard to do. From here on in, it is just a matter of doing.

I think "How Zen Became Zen" is a fine book. I enjoyed reading it. Good luck with the Taiwanese Temple and in using their Chan Hall. Who is the temple affiliated with?

All the best,

Stuart