i need help

"Tina: could you expound on "uniting compassion with emptiness" - tim
"

Hi Tim,
I think David's post #20 provided three key points which are relevant to what is meant by uniting compassion with emptiness: impermanence, equanimity, and letting it go (nonattachment).
"Suffering" in the context of your original question seems two fold ("Do any of you get overwhelmed with all of the suffering in the world?" And your example of a patient experiencing physical suffering...), but in actuality it encompasses your suffering as well as the patients. No difference if suffering is that of physical pain, or the suffering that is related to the dissonant mental states (attachment, aversion, doubt, etc.) which basically amount to the delusion of self and separateness (duality).
When we understand (and directly experience) emptiness, we realize that there is no existing this or that. We rest in 'suchness.' When we combine emptiness with unconditional compassion, we are able to selflessly give to others with no personalized expectation for an outcome or result.
This is a bit difficult for me to put in words, perhaps because I'm still in the midst of learning to refine this balance... I by no means have this perfected.

Today I came across this essay on 'Emptiness and Compassion'
josephsoleary.typepad.com/my_weblog/2005...emptiness_and_c.html
The following excerpt from the essay expounds on this subject much better than my awkward words. I hope you find it to be helpful:

The Non-Duality of Wisdom and Compassion -
Two mighty spiritual forces vie for the upper hand in Mahâyâna Buddhism. One is the wisdom that sees the emptiness of all dharmas. The other is the compassion that devotes itself to the liberation of suffering beings.

[continued in next post]

[edited a word]

Contrary to facile claims that wisdom and compassion automatically imply one another, Viévard shows that the harmonization of these two pillars of Buddhism was the result of a long struggle of thought. Their non-duality is proclaimed, but claims of non-duality are always directed against concrete targets, recurring oppositions that are a trap for the mind. '˜Non-duality is before all else the echo of an opposition, even if this in the end shows itself to be fictive. L'advaya presupposes a conflict between dharmas, since it seeks to reduce it. For the Madhyamaka, however, this conflict is merely illusory and has reality only for the ignorant and in convention' (p. 195).

The last sentence here point to an ultimate non-duality that is likely to be a stumbling block to Western students of Madhyamaka. But the practical striving for the integration of emptiness and compassion at the conventional level is a much more accessible idea. It allows us to meet the Madhyamaka thinkers at the level of common sense and basic moral and spiritual values. The bodhisattva ideal may seen too sublime, even then, to fit comfortably with our everyday preoccupations, but as an ideal of sainthood it puts forth a challenge that genuinely affects us. It does not come from another planet. Long meditation on the non-duality of wisdom and compassion as a practical project can perhaps prepare us to make better sense of the loftier proclamations of an ultimate non-duality.

The sage seeks the wisdom of emptiness, whereas the saint is devoted to selfless compassion. The patron of the one is Manjusrî, bodhisattva of wisdom, and of the other, Avalokitesvara (Kannon), bodhisattva of compassion. One may say that '˜wisdom without compassion is empty, compassion without wisdom blind,' but only rarely do Mahâyâna texts claim that compassion arises naturally from insight into emptiness. Compassion, directed actively to the welfare of all beings, seems to presuppose their real existence.

[continued]
It is based not on emptiness but on the '˜golden rule' that treats the sufferings of others as equal to one's own. Compassion gives a substantial presence to self and other, which wisdom would deny. There is no natural harmony between these two, for they go in opposite directions. Yet the essence of Mahâyâna lies in establishing the ultimate unity of compassion and wisdom. They are unified in practice in the figure of the bodhisattva, who moves upward in wisdom and downward in compassion at the same time. The path to that unity is a difficult balancing act. '˜If one begins a career through wisdom, one will have to develop compassion, and vice versa the one who begins through compassion will have to purify it by wisdom' (p. 17).

The bodhisattva must invest skillfully in the opposing virtues of wisdom, which retreats to the forest, and compassion, which descends to the village. The opposition does not paralyze the bodhisattva, but spurs him or her on. '˜Such an opposition also remains as long as both emptiness and compassion have not attained perfection, and the perfection of one implies the perfection of the other. When one develops one of them, one must counterbalance it with the help of the other. Helping one another, they will arrive at non-duality that makes their perfection' (pp. 15-16).

[continued]
Emptiness can be a preparation for compassion: '˜When '“ owing to emptiness '“ the bodhisattva feels in a village as if he were in a forest, then compassion is permitted. It is a preparatory medication that vaccinates him against the agitations of the world' (p. 16). In turn, compassion lends emptiness a substantial enactment that it would otherwise lack. It roots the notion of non-self conveyed by emptiness in the field of experience. '˜If emptiness permits the exercising of compassion through knowledge of universal identity, in return compassion roots this absence of difference between me and others in the world, Compassion here is an external evidence of emptiness' (p. 17).

We have already seen that emptiness is a practical discipline of language and thought leading to the attitude of non-clinging. Now we see the full implications of this practice. Emptiness is for the sake of compassion, and the practice of compassion is what fully secures and completes the attitude of emptiness. The compound sûnyatâ-karunâ-garbha shows that '˜not only are emptiness and compassion not contradictory, but they define purity when they are reunited. Each brings to the act a form of its perfection; emptiness is forgetfulness of the other while compassion is forgetfulness of self' (p. 225). As in other pairs that apparently conflict, one can imagine two oxen bound by a yoke, the pace of the one conditioning the gait of the other.
josephsoleary.typepad.com/my_weblog/2005...emptiness_and_c.html

" On a societal level, maybe all the patients wants is, not prolongation of life to do thier activities of daily living, but a time to put thier affairs in order to decrease the misery of thier family, but they can't partition out the mental and physical pain to allow them to do that. On a personal level they can't make peace with thier "self" because of this distraction. It seemed to me (granted i am the least skilled of all the participants in KFD and DhU) when reading the Tibeten Book of Living and Dying, that the Tibeten Bardos and the hindrances to the path are so confusing that the trying to navigate the thought processes during pain would be extraordinary difficult. What do you think? One of the many things i so admire about you all, is this uncanny ability to talk about, then deconstruct the objective sensations, catagorize/map them, form a plan to accomplish the end goal in a rational approach. i think this is missing in medicine dealing with any disease process. i lack the insight but driven by the compasssion to learn this.

tim"

Hey Tim,

It's been a while since I read the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, but my basic philosophy about this is that no one really knows what happens when you die. It's the Great Mystery. I figure we'll find out soon enough assuming consciousness or individual identity/memories survive at all.

Regarding both bardos of various types and the struggles to put affairs in order, or even to try to overcome the illness, I recommend giving the same advice that I gave you - fight with mindfulness of the process but not the outcome. Be the best cancer patient/victim/survivor you can be, and if you've done your best, let go of the rest - "put it in God's hands" or whatever other framework helps them to do this. Remind them that doing their best sometimes means letting go.
Hope that helps!
D

"why do people who seem to have so little compassion or empathy go to medical school and become MDs"

Chris:

i can't speak for all physicians, nor am i enlightened. i believe nearly all physicians that i have ever met in the last 20 years, all over the country have compassion and empathy.

It is a razors edge how much to reveal to others. Every patient who sits with me is suffering. i can feel their feeling of helplessness...thier deep desire for hope and comfort, need for reassurance, thier fear of pain, lonieliness.

How can i help the patient, when i do not know things myself...what the dying/death process is, what, when and how much pain they ill have to endure, or thier families. i have been lucky enough to listen to patients who have endured a "clinical death" who describe in detail thier journey to a different place and experience a life review process...these are well described in the literature/books. i cannot reveal or reassure patients with these stories. i cannot ask them to be the watcher, that will make them fearless. i don,t want to confuse them anymore than they are (i am confused myself).

Part of the problem is you do not want to alienate the patient and family with your own personal opinions/experiences...so you listen with loving kindness Unfortunately it is not enough most of the time.

i am sorry about your some of your experiences with your parents health care providers. Empathy and compassion is not learned...sometimes it is brought out in a student via emulation. Sometimes experience and the age of the health care provider allows one to be more accepting of thier own feelings revealing to others. Sometimes we hide in data/statistics...cheating patients of what we really feel...uncertainty. This is part of the reason i am so driven to obtain enlightenment, so i teach an algorithm to providers to meet these needs.

tim

Tina, Dave: it took me awhile to digest all you wrote, i am not yet one with emptiness and takes me awhile to incorporate this concept on a moment to moment awareness. Thank you for your insight and support.

tim

"It is a razors edge how much to reveal to others. Every patient who sits with me is suffering. i can feel their feeling of helplessness...thier deep desire for hope and comfort, need for reassurance, thier fear of pain, lonieliness."

Tim, thanks for your very personal reply. I'm sure that every physician I've seen with my mother has compassion, and I'm also sure many of them don't know how to express it. I think you're on the right track here. Anything we can do to humanize these things would be of huge benefit.

Hi Tim,
Yes, that is a lot of info to take in and assimilate in some practical and useful way. Perhaps for now, you can practice uniting compassion with emptiness in small incremental steps. At this point simply let it be a mindful practice... it's not some end result that must be met right now. It takes practice... it is a training of the mind... a day to day exercise. Simply look at it this way.

I think your patients are very fortunate to have you as a caregiver. You LISTEN to them with the heart/mind of loving kindness... you are being of benefit to them.

You mentioned not knowing the death/dying process. I'm assuming you're meaning this at a different level than what is traditionally taught in western medicine i.e. Kubler-Ross model. I come from a western medical background (psychiatric nurse) and assumed that this model was well established within medical schools curriculum. If I'm correct, then my question to you is: are you referring to the death/dying process in this light, or are you referring to other views of death/dying, such as the Buddhist view? You mentioned reading the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying; is this the death and dying process you're referring to? If this is the case, perhaps it would be helpful for you to contact a Buddhist hospice and talk with people who have experience in working with patients in this way. I'm guessing this would be for your own edification, and not necessarily something that you would regularly share with your patients.

By the way, how is your meditation practice going now? You last mentioned being able to access 4th jhana and cycle up and down multiple times. Are you now experiencing the rejuvenation that you previously benefited from (before the foot spasm interference)? Have you made further progress?
Stay encouraged with all that you're doing, it will certainly all come together for you.
- Tina
.

Tina: you are so sweet for asking.

i still meditate for 75 min qAM before making rounds. First 10 minutes are usually wasted calming down the priorities of the day. Then pulsatile mental image of respirations for about 5 min. Then my breath calms and my pulse is very defined and becomes the predominant sensation in this vessel for about 10 min. Then usually a clear steady light, empty field of focus for about 10 min, before the weird bilateral pedal spasms. Spasms almost continuously for about 20 min knocking me down from what I suspect is Jhana 3 to Jhana 1. Initially i tried to gut it out and ignore it thinking it would resolve over time, but it has continued for 4 months. It is not painful, it is impermanent, unsatisfactory and not me so i have been trying to let nature run its course. When i first initiated this thread i took all of the suggestions and now try to come home from work each night walking meditate (which i am not good at) or reclining which i pretty easily slip into Jhana 1-3/nana 1-3. i am still waiting for the big A&P event but suspect that my failure to obtain it is either hampered by this kundilini, or i am just not meditating enough/lack of retreat experience. i pretty much have read Daniels book so many times, that i know he would say that if i really wanted enlightenment bad enough i would go on a prolonged retreat. i want to, but could not find someone to support all of the nuances of my practice for long enough...so i try my best to be judicious with the time that i have.

i am always open to suggestions since it has been years without progress to the big A& P event. somewhat discouraging, but i suspect the world is unfolding as it should be. Thank you for asking.

tim

"... if i really wanted enlightenment bad enough i would go on a prolonged retreat."

Tim, if I had a dollar for every time I've said something like this I'd be retired. Cut yourself some slack, give yourself some love and try to relax. You sound like I tend to, which means you're thinking your progress is entirely a matter of will and desire. Your will and your desire. Turns out both those things, those that have served you so well in life (until now), can work against your practice. I still run afoul of that.

Is it possible that sitting for 75 minutes at a stretch is just too long? What if you cut that time in half and sat twice a day for 30-45 minutes? What if you took a break for a week or so and then came back to your practice?

" i am still waiting for the big A&P event but suspect that my failure to obtain it is either hampered by this kundilini, or i am just not meditating enough/lack of retreat experience. "

Dude,

Kundalini events *are* the A&P, by definition. Sometimes the A&P is big, sometimes not. You are getting to it, every time. You done done it. Next phase is dissolution.

Anyone here disagree?

David

P.S. - I'm told that one of my strengths is a keen grasp of the obvious.

"" i am still waiting for the big A&P event but suspect that my failure to obtain it is either hampered by this kundilini, or i am just not meditating enough/lack of retreat experience. ""

I am a pretty sceptical person at baseline.
Had it not been pointed out to me (by somebody that knows the territory), I would very much doubt what I now refer to as the A&P experience.

Basically I have had similar experiences frequently in sittings. According to Kenneth's model, its just sliding up and down the nanas (as it naturally happens in any sitting).

So I'm on the same page with David, this suggests you having at some point crossed the A&P

(hopefully helfpul) Andrew

"
So I'm on the same page with David, this suggests you having at some point crossed the A&P
"

Or he's crossing it now...

Yep - check out the 20 basic strata of mind. Notice where the A&P is in relation to 3rd jhana. Isn't it interesting how he gets to 3rd jhana, and then KUNDALINI experiences stop him cold, preventing him from getting his long awaited A&P? (?) Those darn kundalini experiences... (Doh!)

No, you've either crossed it, or this is it right here, and if I remember correctly these foot spasms have only been around for about 4 months - so it may well be the latter.

Hey, count your blessings - the Dark Night might not nearly be as gentle. Think about it, if you can't afford to go on an extended retreat, could you really afford a dramatic psuedo-manic break?
Part of what everyone has to work through at some point is the need to have dramatic spiritual experiences. Take this and run with it.

David

Chris, Andrew, David: i can't believe you are telling me this...since i have been waiting for the big A&P event thinking it was going to be like an electric charge going from sacrum to bregma, knocking me into the next room.

I didn't tell you that, Tim, but the others did and they sound to be right on!

"Chris, Andrew, David: i can't believe you are telling me this...since i have been waiting for the big A&P event thinking it was going to be like an electric charge going from sacrum to bregma, knocking me into the next room."

This is one of those wonderful examples of the great benefits to having a site such as this! A place where people can interact, tell of their experiences or even the seemingly lack of experiencing what they think they should be experiencing... and then via discussions with supportive peers... and gentle pointing... we discover that which we did not initially see. Awesome, eh!

Often times, I think we are our own biggest hindrance to our "progress" because we conceptualize with expectations of what "it" should be or shouldn't be. Sometimes it's merely an example of "not seeing the forest for the trees." Either way, I think when we learn to relax into the process, the progress will occur naturally. Our job is merely to get out of our own way...

- Tina

Great discussion - thanks so much to all involved.

I just wanted to add a bit of my own personal experience that may be helpful for Tim and/or others that may be reading.

Tim: "... i have been waiting for the big A&P event thinking it was going to be like an electric charge going from sacrum to bregma, knocking me into the next room..."

I had similar thoughts for a long time, but then I began to notice that I was making progress during meditation in areas where I don't think progress can be made sans a crossing of the A&P. One evening the light sort of came on for me when I recalled two different dreams I had experienced relatively close together about a year or so after I started meditating seriously. The dreams were ridiculous - they made absolutely no sense at all - there were no cogent story lines or personally meaningful symbols, but they were extremely vivid, in bright technicolor with digital sound and bone-shaking special effects. I felt sensations as if they were "real" throughout my body. I awoke in a rather agitated, disturbed and confused state each time, and could not shake the memories of the dreams and the feeling that they were somehow very significant despite their non-sensical nature for the longest time.

Some time later, I recalled Daniel's account of one of his crossings that featured a dream or vision featuring a witch and it sounded similar to my dream experience. The pieces came together for me then, and I now believe that those dreams were my own crossing of the A&P. I could be wrong, but as of now, that's what I think happened. Time will tell....

And like Tim, I spent a lot of frustrated time waiting for the experience that would "knock me into the next room" to confirm that crossing. Just something to think about.

Warmest regards,

John

"(apparently not so much) Chris, (but) Andrew, David: i can't believe you are telling me this...since i have been waiting for the big A&P event thinking it was going to be like an electric charge going from sacrum to bregma, knocking me into the next room."

If you're seeing lights, have any strong to intense varying sensations focused in center area of the body or diffusely and "flow" with the sensations just flickering away - that's probably the thing. I've only crossed this territory once, so other people can chime in on how much it differs couple times around - so take it for what it's worth.

But it seems you don't have to have all of these. Remember these are descriptions of territory not the thing. I would be very surprised that with your level of HEAVY LIFTING (read:sitting) of 75 mins daily you would not get here. With that much effort (at least) I would think you would not be able to avoid it.

Keep at it, man. You know you have got that unexplicable drive to do this.

Courage, Effort and Gentleness

Andrew

Tina, John, Andrew: i appreciate you all so much.

it seems that part of the difficulty with the process is separating out the wheat from the chaff in terms of personal event identification and comparison to map territory. You read the gold standard books and articles enough, but not enough of the personal experiences to get an idea of the variability of the terrain to know if what you are experiencing has any importance or just noise. it is difficult to know when to lead and when to follow; when to enter, when to exit; when to refocus, when to get out of the way; too much effort, too little. The self-motivation to drive the process gets in the way of the progress, unlike other activities in life.

again thank you

tim

I'm not good on this identifying territory stuff either, but is it possible that some of the feelings that prompted Tim to even start this discussion thread (see, for example, its title) might be related to being in the dark night territory? (The feeling of at times being overwhelmed by the suffering in the world, for example.)

"I'm not good on this identifying territory stuff either, but is it possible that some of the feelings that prompted Tim to even start this discussion thread (see, for example, its title) might be related to being in the dark night territory? (The feeling of at times being overwhelmed by the suffering in the world, for example.)
"

Hi Nigel,
Yes, I also wondered this. It does seem to fit.

Tim,
Yes, it can be difficult to identify the events that are applicable and related to practice progress (per comparison of map territory). My feeling regarding the maps, is that they are meant to be a useful tool, a method. It doesn't matter what approach one takes (methods such as Theravadan progress maps or "method of no method" i.e. the direct path approach), they both work and they both get you to the big E. The key is practice, practice, and sincerity in practice... The other key ingredient seems to be to relax with it, to surrender, to let go. Sometimes we get so involved in trying to make progress, or worried that we're not making progress that we loose sight of the intended purpose. Don't worry about comparisons and fitting exactly with what the events that are described in the maps. Remember, there will be variances... everyone brings to their practice their different life experiences... these experiences add to and make up ones perspectives... and variances in what will unfold on the cushion (as well as off the cushion, in daily life).

I think what Kenneth posted here has relevance to this discussion: kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Phys...els+of+Enlightenment

Yes, it is, Nigel. My personal take on this is that if I really want to know where I am on a spiritual map I ask someone like Kenneth, who has eons more experience than I do and can probably nail it down for me very quickly. I'm most often just guessing if I self-diagnose, and in the guessing lies the risk that I will misidentify or misdiagnose and then waste time or do the wrong thing in my practice.

"it seems that part of the difficulty with the process is separating out the wheat from the chaff in terms of personal event identification and comparison to map territory. You read the gold standard books and articles enough, but not enough of the personal experiences to get an idea of the variability of the terrain to know if what you are experiencing has any importance or just noise. it is difficult to know when to lead and when to follow; when to enter, when to exit; when to refocus, when to get out of the way; too much effort, too little. The self-motivation to drive the process gets in the way of the progress, unlike other activities in life.
"

Yes!!!

"
Yes, it is, Nigel. My personal take on this is that if I really want to know where I am on a spiritual map I ask someone like Kenneth, who has eons more experience than I do and can probably nail it down for me very quickly. I'm most often just guessing if I self-diagnose, and in the guessing lies the risk that I will misidentify or misdiagnose and then waste time or do the wrong thing in my practice.

"

That certainly sounds like a good idea.