Questionable or frivolous claims to enlightenment

Posts containing questionable or frivolous claims to enlightenment will be moved here. As site creator and moderator, I am in the unenviable position of deciding which claims are questionable or frivolous. Although I do not relish this role, I accept it as necessary in order to keep the culture of this website true to its original vision. To be more precise, this website is dedicated to helping others find the happiness that is not dependent upon conditions.

(Originally posted by theprisonergreco on 11OCT2009. It's been moved to this thread because of the implicit claim of 4th path (arahatship).)

" i just wanted to jump in here because for me, the transition from 3rd to 4th path was seeing that there is actually no screen, which also ended any sense of impression that there seems to be one.. the notion of a screen disappeared completely.

tarin"

Tarin's comment was originally posted here:

kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/33...fset=0&maxResults=20

edit: added URL of original thread

An open letter to Tarin (theprisonergreco), from Kenneth Folk:

Hi Tarin,

I've been thinking of you and meaning to send you a note, so this awkward situation turns out to be a mixed blessing:

I moved your post from the "Impermanence, No-self, and Suffering" thread on KFDh to the "Questionable or Frivolous Claims to Enlightenment" thread. I'm trying to promote a culture of helpfulness and humility on the forum and I'm concerned that if I were to allow this post to stand, it would create an unwelcome precedent. Specifically, your first post on the site includes the matter-of-fact implicit claim of full enlightenment, as though it should be taken at face value. Such claims carry a lot of weight with many people, and if those claims go unchallenged, the claimants become de facto teaching voices with undue influence over the other members. This is what happened at the Dharma Overgound. At one point there were so many self-proclaimed arahat teachers vying for attention that the forum became a mockery of itself. The DhO lost credibility during that phase and many valuable voices disappeared from the forum. Many of these voices reappeared at KFDh and a new, more thoughtful culture emerged; people who felt burned by all of the "openness" at DhO were much less eager the second time around to make claims to enlightenment the central theme of discussions. We have developed a culture of humble and respectful discourse. This is just what I hoped for and I would like to continue in this direction. (cont below)

(cont from above)

I have mixed feelings about having you as a contributor on KFDh. I am personally very fond of you, and I know that you have a great deal of potential. But I consider you a potentially disruptive influence to KFDh. I'll be straight with you: I welcome your participation at the forum, but you will be on a short leash. If you decide to participate while remaining within the existing culture and vision of the community (which you will quickly absorb by reading the posts), you are welcome. If not, I would prefer that you post elsewhere. This is your choice to make.

Either way, I remain...

Your friend,

Kenneth

I wonder if the claim I made earlier on that thread (Impermanence, No-Self, and Suffering) should be moved here? I certainly did not wish to assume the voice of authority, or assume the role of a teacher, but I did want to establish that I wasn't speaking from a completely uninformed position.

I'm more than happy to move that content from that particular post here (if we could leave the rest).

Seems fair.
D

"I wonder if the claim I made earlier on that thread (Impermanence, No-Self, and Suffering) should be moved here? I certainly did not wish to assume the voice of authority, or assume the role of a teacher, but I did want to establish that I wasn't speaking from a completely uninformed position.

I'm more than happy to move that content from that particular post here (if we could leave the rest).

Seems fair.
D"

David, are you talking about post 18? I think it's fine. My intention here is not to force everyone back into the closet. Frankly, that's the last thing I want. The goal is rather more nuanced than that. I just don't want people to blandly drop claims of full enlightenment into the middle of threads as though they were unimpeachable or well-established facts. All of us have opinions about where we fall on the maps of enlightenment. This is natural and I think it's a good thing, which is why I work so hard to promote and explain various ways of mapping insight. And I have no desire to return to what Bill Hamilton called the "mushroom" culture, in which everyone has to pretend they don't know anything even when they do. There has to be a golden middle path here, and I think we have by and large walked it up until now in this community.

People, if you think you might be enlightened, say so. But leave open the possibility that you may be wrong. And don't take your alleged enlightenment as a well-established and undisputed perch from which to clobber other people with your opinions. I feel very confident in predicting that no matter how enlightened you are right now, your opinions will change over time. Enlightenment is not the calcification of views, nor is it privileged access to some wellspring of relative truth. What is enlightenment? Opinions vary. Let's explore together.

Kenneth

This is right. This is what I was hoping would happen on DhO and never did. This is why I post here, not there.

Thank you.

Hi Dave!

It seems clear to me, and as you alluded to, Dave, and as I interpreted it, we can have glimpses of the Dharmakaya without being fully established or stabilized in it; and thus, not be enlightened. This is my understanding of the traditional Dzogchen / Mahamudra view. Perhaps Alex would like to comment on that too. Since he is, informally, well read and practiced in said traditions.

Wouldn't you agree Dave? So, I didn't take the content of your post as a claim, implicit or otherwise.

If you feel it is pertinent, please do clarify.

In kind regards,

Adam.

(reply to kenneth folk's email printed in full below)

And yet, what i posted was on-topic and relevant to the discussion.

You can keep your Power and Grandeur Kenneth, I want nothing to do with them.

I'll post this reply to the site when i have the opportunity.

Tarin

I understand Kenneths concern and follow his reasoning to do this, but on balance disagree with the action taken.
Taken at face value without any history from DHO or knowledge of private converstions between Kenneth and Tarin; Tarin is making a point about 4th path. I think he should be free to express this.

Guess I have blown my chances of being a moderator here .

BTW Kenneth it goes without saying, I respect that you are quite within your rights to do this and sincerly hope it assists in your vision for this site. A vision that has assisted me immensely.

Hey Gary!

Yeah, I don't envy Kenneth's position - tough decisions to be made as moderator. I do, on principle, support his action though. DhO was a debacle in the number of unsubstantiated claims of enlightenment; the lack of robust discussion; and childish behaviour. It was embarrassing and we lost some great people as a result.

These claims were so frequent and so inconsistent with traditional experience and view, that they - the claims - and the DhO site became completely devalued, as to be functionally useless and meaningless. For said claimants there was very little use of reason and argument as a basis for discussion and assistance - rather, it stood on personal authority of enlightened realization. And yet, I for one, saw no evidence of said realization; rather, I saw a great deal of sophomoric inflation, confusion, lack of intellectual rigor and emotional intelligence. Which of course was implicitly justified by the doctrine that these dimensions would remain unaffected by enlightenment. It reminded me of high school kids talking themselves up on the play ground - such that, juvenile fantasy was indistinguishable from actual realization.

True, who can substantiate such claims? Traditionally, of course there are mechanisms in place. However, we mostly operate outside tradition - I know I do. I'm not identified with any one tradition - however, I draw from all of them - including recognized teachers therefrom. I am not an island unto myself and need the assistance of those elders above me. There is much that we can learn from tradition - like the musical scales, and the great symphonies - before we tentatively go our own way.

[cont.]

Tarin stated when he got 4th path he realized 'X'. On this site it appears it will be an environment that values such claims and ACTUAL realizations, such that it will be cautious about letting them stand in an uncritically accepted manner; and rightly so, in my view.

Tarin may be realized. I have no evidence for that; therefore, I remain agnostic. With that alone, I would be charitable enough not to suggest he is not. However, there is evidence to suggest he is not. He continues to seek and suffer, as is implied in his pursuit and discussion of AF. Furthermore, his position is inconsistent with tradition which amounts to one person disagreeing with the millions who have gone before him. That is not to be taken lightly. So, on the face of it, prima facie, he appears not to be enlightened.

More importantly, since many of us value such a realization, I would suggest we be very cautious about diminishing it, or risking its integrity, by granting unqualified freedom to every Tom, Dick and Harry to present themselves as enlightened.

In kind regards,

Adam.

Very well said, Adam West! Obviously, I agree.

Thanks Chris!

Thanks mate!

It is timely that this discussion takes place. To use a religious metaphor, evil flourishes when good men do nothing. Point being there is implicit support for said claims when we allow their presence to be ongoing and accepted by virtue of them not being challenged.

On a more practical level, in the scientific world, findings need to be supported by robust scientific procedure; in the absence of such good science, these findings are COMPLETELY without value. Utterly useless. If the community of scientists let them go unchallenged, it would completely erode the credibility of that community; and indeed, utterly destroy the practical outcomes and functional use of any future science - and its 'real world benifets'. In this case, actual, repeatable, enlightenment; and the tradition of methodology and wisdom that preserves those real-world outcomes. Indeed, much is at stake!

In kind regards,

Adam. Edited for clarity.

"On a more practical level, in the scientific world, findings need to be supported by robust scientific procedure; in the absence of such good science, these findings are COMPLETELY without value. Utterly useless. If the community of scientists let them go unchallenged, it would completely erode the credibility of that community; and indeed, utterly destroy the practical outcomes and functional use of any future science - and its 'real world benifets'.

In this case, actual, repeatable, enlightenment; and the tradition of methodology and wisdom that preserves those real-world outcomes. Indeed, much is at stake!

In kind regards,

Adam."

Right on.

It seems we have gotten to a point of defining a suitable peer review process for this (big E) phenomenon. Difficulties of course remain due to subjective nature of the subject matter. Current scientific paradigm struggles with evaluating subjective sciences.

Nevertheless appropriate efforts are unavoidable and absolutely necessary. I see the current controversies in this subject as evidence of growing pains.

I absolutely agree that much is at stake.

Andrew

For this post what Tarin's says regarding his attainment can be taken as a grain of salt or otherwise; what I got from the post was the suggestion that with 4th path there was the realization there was no screen. This is either a known ( perhaps with some intrepretive license) 4th path realization or not. Kenneth or another could have could have just knocked it on the head with what was being said about 4th path. So does 4th path have a realization like this?

With regards for the concern about those making false claims. There is a big wide world out there with claims being made about all manner of things, we all handle these with the best solutions being to empower not censor. You could infer claims of some sort for most (including myself ) of the regular posters how the readers handle these as much part of the learning as other material.

I am obviously in the minority here, but I think Adam you raised some very good points worthy of serious consideration as seekr has mentioned, Chris your opinion is valuable I know you have considerable experience with moderating forums and Kenneth thanks for commitment to making this site work.

Regards
Gary

Hi, Gary.

Let's give Kenneth huge props. He's asserting authority in two ways - one as someone with very great realization who can legitimately pass some amount of judgment on the claims of others and, more importantly, he has decided how this message board will handle such claims in the future. He did so openly and with respect for everyone involved. Now we all know what to expect. Keep in mind, the message board HAS to have integrity and must be managed that way or people who care, have scruples and expect integrity will leave and find another message board. Adam West has already described what happens when a board's integrity is lost and authority takes a pass. He's right, and that clearly won't happen here.

This kind of thing is very, very difficult to do. It was done exceedingly well, IMHO.

Yes! Thank you Kenneth for taking the necessary measures to avoid repeating here what happened not so long ago on DhO.

On balance I would also have to second Chris.

I wish there was a way it could have been done without offending Tarin, because on one level, what he was saying was not completely off topic. On the other hand, he could have made that point without referencing his own assessment of his level of realization. We know what Kenneth's assessment of his own level of accomplishment is, yet rarely does he reference this in discussions, and he never uses it to reinforce points he's making in discussion.

I think it might be a good idea to say a few words about this in the link that says "Read this First" when you are new to the site, so that people have fair warning about the attitude and policy towards claims here, before they stick their foot in their mouth.
D

"On balance I would also have to second Chris.

I wish there was a way it could have been done without offending Tarin, because on one level, what he was saying was not completely off topic. On the other hand, he could have made that point without referencing his own assessment of his level of realization. We know what Kenneth's assessment of his own level of accomplishment is, yet rarely does he reference this in discussions, and he never uses it to reinforce points he's making in discussion.

I think it might be a good idea to say a few words about this in the link that says "Read this First" when you are new to the site, so that people have fair warning about the attitude and policy towards claims here, before they stick their foot in their mouth.
D"

hi david,

not only was my post on-topic, but my 'assessment of [my] level of realisation' was also relevant in that at a certain point in my path-development (during 3rd), i would have agreed with almost everything you wrote, the metaphors you use, and the way you used. now i reject them outright, because the basis on which their sense rested vanished completely, and i subsequently found myself thinking things some people - including dan - had said to me in ways i hadn't before (some of which he said in the 'impermanence, no-self and suffering' thread prior to my post).

humility is a symptom of pride, not its cure, and i have no wish to equivocate to please the vainly humble. therefore, i will not participate in this forum.

tarin

""humility is a symptom of pride, not its cure, and i have no wish to equivocate to please the vainly humble. therefore, i will not participate in this forum. -- tarin""

Can someone contact Tarin so we can find out whether his exit was an example of pride or humility?

Regards,
Gozen

Lol! ;-P

In kind regards,

Adam.

"Tarin wrote:
humility is a symptom of pride."

Seriously ... maybe It's my low level realization but how is this true exactly?

Gozen, you put it best.

Andrew

There does seem to be such a thing as false humility, which would seem to be a symptom of pride. However, that is not to conflate false humility with genuine 'real' humility that follows from real insight into the non-self and the intrinsic self-shining nature of Being; and the actual experiential realization that, fundamentally, there is no hierarchical sense of superiority in reality; or indeed, that there is no one to be superior or inferior to - just fundamental luminous clarity that may be experienced as love, compassion, power and confidence in real time.

[cont.]

In fact, we may even go so far as to say humility is a luminous presentation of the natural state, that is, like a diamond, self-shinning, multifaceted, and pristinely pure as its fundamental condition. Genuine humility seems to present by default, in the real absence of pride - with pride following from a deluded ego-identification that believes in its own 'self'-existence, and the comparative value of that existence to other postulated egos. In the absence of such self-referential beliefs and ego-identification - which naturally elaborates into a 'self-judgment' in relation to 'me' and others - in conjunction with the genuine realization of the natural-state, there seems to remain an intrinsic ease, clarity, generosity and perfect completion that finds no need to struggle in defense or promotion of a 'me' that suffers in a fear-based world-view of scarce resources and need for survival. From this view, a natural self-shining of love, peace, ease, compassion, power, confidence, joy, perfection and generosity that is non-self-referential presents in such a way that seems to give rise to a deep and multidimensional humility of presence and being. In this way it appears to me, there is such a thing as genuine humility in the absence of pride.

[cont.]