Questionable or frivolous claims to enlightenment

However, it may be necessary for a practitioner to have a real 'cutting through' of 'ego-identification' for themselves in order to see what is fundamental to their true nature, and its experiential qualities as suggested above.

May we all know the humility that is based in a happiness that is not dependent upon conditions. A happiness that is true freedom from suffering and fear, one that finds no need for defense or attack; which of necessity, are predicated upon states of mind that are not fundamental to our person. To know our natural state, is by definition, to know a self-shining humility that is fundamentally free from suffering, pride and false-humility.

In humility,

Adam.

"my 'assessment of [my] level of realisation' was also relevant in that at a certain point in my path-development (during 3rd), i would have agreed with almost everything you wrote, the metaphors you use, and the way you used. now i reject them outright, because the basis on which their sense rested vanished completely...
...humility is a symptom of pride, not its cure, and i have no wish to equivocate to please the vainly humble. therefore, i will not participate in this forum.

tarin"

Hmnn...
It's a bit tempting to make sardonic comments in response to this, but that would be, how did Adam put it? Uncharitable.

In a certain way, I don't really want to waste much more time and energy on this, but it might be useful to point out that Tarin might have simply written the above sans the parenthetical reference to 3rd path, or made a general comment about the realizations of 3rd path relative to 4th path. It might have been interesting to hear what the "basis on which their sense rested" refers to in a tangential sense, but as my most recent post to the thread in question (#79 and 80) may make clear, the literal sense of a "screen" was never intended, but was really there to prove a logical point - so in the final analysis this all *was* off topic. It might have clarified the fact that I didn't intend it literally, but otherwise...

True humility is a universal and fundamental spiritual value - the wisdom earned from the universe consistently crushing our nose in the dirt when we act out of pride. For the ancient Greeks (and I understand that Tarin is of Greek ancestry) hubris was the greatest sin. The words "Know Thyself" written above the gate at the temple of Delphi referred to this - knowing yourself to be a mortal before the Gods, rather than the contemporary sense of self-knowledge. Ladies and Gentlemen, let us not commit this profound sin!

Thank you Adam for your insightful post.

On a much simpler level I know of a 'false humility' that merely placates 'me the oh so humble spiritual seeker'.

You have put it much more succintly and beautifully.

Your words resonate with me.

Andrew

David, Adam, Chris, Tarin, Gary, Alex, Andrew, and Gozen, thanks for expressing your views. I value your input highly and will reflect upon what you've said in an effort to improve my moderator skills. At this point, I feel good about the actions taken, although I bow to the law of unforeseen consequences and I understand that this is not the end of it. To the extent that I've hurt Tarin, I feel sorry, and to the extent that we've managed to avoid a debacle similar to the one we saw at DhO, I feel cautiously optimistic.

Gary, I appreciate and admire that fact that you spoke your piece in spite of the fact that yours was a minority view. Tarin, I understand that you don't want to participate here in light of what's happened and I respect your decision. David, Adam, Chris, Alex, Andrew, and Gozen, your support means a lot and makes me think we may be on the right track, at least for now.

Best,

Kenneth

edit: typos

Kenneth, you should be ever so slightly more optimistic.The mere existence of this thread is enough to raise the optimism level. There's now a place to discuss these issues appropriately. And the members of this community have handled the situation in a very mature manner. Kudos to all of you.

"humility is a symptom of pride, not its cure, and i have no wish to equivocate to please the vainly humble. therefore, i will not participate in this forum.

tarin"

Hello KFDh friends!

It's been a while since I've posted here, and I feel kind of bad about that. I've been preoccupied with other things, but would like to recommit to participating in the discussions here.

That said, I think there's a nugget of wisdom in what Tarin said about humility and pride. I see this often in regards to what Trungpa Rinpoche called "Spiritual Materialism". Acting humble is often the right thing to do in spiritual scenes, and it has a way of giving clout to those who would on no other grounds deserve it. The idea that someone is more enlightened than someone else based on their level of humility is an erroneous view - one that can easily lead to a fluffy community without a solid foundation.

That said... acting with humility is not necessarily a mark of conceit, either. This is where we need to allow ourselves to sharpen our ability to be discriminating and discerning when we need to be. One way to balance this (at least intellectually) is to remember Aristotle's "Golden Mean" (an application of Virtue Ethics). For example, we generally consider bravery to be a good thing. But would it be good for someone to be so brave that they walk in to oncoming traffic and allow themselves to be killed? And how about humility - would it be good for someone to be so humble that they could never accept a compliment, or allow someone to treat them with dignity or privilege? I think we all know that there is a balance to be won here, and I hope we can base our interactions regarding claims to enlightenment along these lines.

~Jackson

EDIT: Typos.

Welcome back, Jackson! Good to see you.

Thanks for this post, Jackson. I think what you've written may point to the heart of the matter, in fact.

"Thanks for this post, Jackson. I think what you've written may point to the heart of the matter, in fact."

Thanks, Ry.