The Great Freedom.

Hey all!

Since I'm sharing links, I might as well post this one too. The Great Freedom. A spontaneous western awakening to the great freedom that is awareness. Some good pointers.

I know people who have been studying Buddhism, Dzogchen, Mahamudra etc. for years who think quite highly of this western articulation of the great spacious freedom that is our fundamental nature - a mind yoga of awareness.

www.greatfreedom.org/musicvideo.html

www.greatfreedom.org/video_basics_1_1.html

I've been watching a few of these - basically Western Dzogchen eh?

I was musing as they were saying that "Everything arises out of Awareness. Awareness is the basic condition of all things."

Is fruition the exception?
D

Hey Dave!

That is the question, is it not!! I don't have a definitive answer on that one; I do have some thoughts, and a working theory. First, it seems the Visuddhimagga as presented in the Burmese tradition, and its geo-political derivatives, is the ONLY source of the view that fruition results in unconsciousness, after which, one is enlightened proper. In the Suttas there is reference to cessation, but, as it seems to me, it need not be interpreted that way. That is, when there is complete cessation of the movement of mind and body, there remains pure awareness, and as such, a perfect realization of the Dharmakaya. So, there is no unconsciousness in this thesis, on the contrary, there is hyper-consciousness of an unconditioned nature, due to the absence of the karmic traces arriving out of the mind-body complex, following their cessation.

Since the Burmese position on cessation is not found in any of the worlds other mystery traditions, I consider it, on principle, to be a misinterpretation of the Suttas. If it was not for credible adepts such as Kenneth and Dan, I would give it even less consideration. Here is my working theory: this cessation in terms of unconsciousness is directly linked to the difference between the realization of Rigpa and 24 hour consciousness through dreamless sleep on one side of attainment, and the completion of energetic circuitry of the kundalini/chakras of 4th path on the other. They are two difference things, and by analogy, may be considered two different parallel circuits or systems. Rigpa being a conscious realization of the Dharmakaya is foundational, and I would argue, that is what the Suttas are referring to, with cessation as unconsciousness as being incomplete, and stage specific. Not Buddhahood.

I would like to see further clarification on this too.

In kind regards,

Adam. Edited for typos

Nice discussion of cessation. I've often wondered if the cessation-as-nibbana paradigm is a misinterpretation of the suttas. On the face of it, it seems suspect. The best we can hope for is unconsciousness? Please.

On the other hand, as a description of a discreet and easily recognized phenomenon that marks the end of a Path cycle, cessation is just what the Visuddhimagga says it is. And since the Visuddhimagga is, first and foremost, a phenomenological work, that isn't surprising.

My own view is that cessation is an interesting phenomenon whose significance, beyond its role as "switch" for changing a yogi from one cycle to the next, is about on the level of jhana. In other words, I don't give cessation any special status. Rigpa, on the other hand, I consider to be the realization of our true potential as humans.

Kenneth

Hey Ken!

Thanks for chiming in on this, it's definitely one of Buddhisms interesting contradictions. I myself have had these cessations over the years, however, I never ascribed meaning to them, and in actual fact, I believed them to be representations of poor meditation - drifting off into unconsciousness during intense mindfulness and jhana practice. Actually, the other 'possible' meaning I ascribed to them, and this may be yet another interpretation for them, assuming they are a real phenomenon, is due to effective practice we actually move into a super-conscious state - Nirvikalpa samādhi, or the taking nirvana as object - which is briefly maintained, and then due to lack of development of the nervious system, we are not able to bring the awareness / memory of that experience back into everyday consciousness - thus, in hindsight, it is experienced as a lack of continuity of consciousness. This would in fact explain the blissful peace that is experienced after the ceasation, and the lack of memory of what happened.

To this day, I do not know if they are of any significance - on the face of it, I would have thought not. Were it not for the Burmese tradition and adepts such as yourself, I would have continued to believe they were just blips in the continuity of consciousness, little more. Curiously, there is at least one person on the other site that claims to spend about three hours a week in unconsciousness, which I am highly skeptical of, not least of all due to the impossibility of remaining in a sitting position while truly unconscious for more than a few seconds without slumping or toppling over. So they must be meditating lying down if they are unconscious for minutes or more. But I digress.

Interesting!

In kind regards,

Adam.

It's possible that those who have cessations, being human, just lack the sensory machinery required for actually knowing what's going on "in there." It's pretty obvious that biology continues during that time. Cessations don't kill us - they just make us wink out of existence for a bit. I suspect we'll find out one day that there are parts of the brain we can point to that cause cessations and that they do have some meaning in a neurological sense. This reminds me of Dr. James Austin's hypothesis that the experience of kensho/satori is caused not by a new process being added in the brain but by the blocking of existing processes by other processes.

I can say that some of the early cessation experiences were profoundly significant for me - or rather their aftereffects were. I remember trying to get a glimpse of what was "in there" and never really being able to - it is clearly possible that somehow we can't encode it, but in any case I recall the sense that whatever was in the gap was important. The first few miliseconds after emerging was also quite important and seemed to demonstrate a lack of separation from reality directly and on visceral, emotional, and intellectual levels simultaneously. At the time I concluded that whatever was "in there" was the Source of all things. So for Path attainments at least, it seems the cessation experience begets the basic insight and enables the "new" faculties, which were always there, but below conscious awareness.

In terms of Awareness, the idea that it is the "Source" is a bit of a new idea for me. Having a fairly long intellectual association with psychodynamic thought (eg Freudian psychoanalysis and formulation, psychic determinism, etc.) I've always had the idea that my conscious awareness is only a small part of what I am, and what I do and take care of...

I love how we all come at this question from our pre-existing areas of knowledge and experience. Maybe cessations are cosmic and spiritual Rorschach tests!

Adam, thanks for the link! I'm finding the talks on Great Freedom are really hitting the spot. They may not use a single Tibetan word, but I recognize all the basic concepts of Dzogchen proper in the Great Freedom teachings.

R.E. the topic of cessation, I'd really like to have one so I could say something about it from experience! I suspect that the confusion is terminological anyhow. Theoretically, the idea of cessation in the Burmese tradition seems very narrow in scope.
Are any of you guys familier with the debate amongst the Tibetan sects regarding the "clear light"? The conservative Tantrics say that only as the culmination of Completion Stage yoga, through absorption of the prana in the central chanel and thence the heart center, there is the "clear light" which isn't an experience, etc. etc. It is, according to this view, totally incompatible with any experience at all on any level and "is" effectively the cessation of all movement or change. It really sounds like cessation when you read the descriptions in the tradition. Now, the more adventurous vajrayanists and obviously Dzogchen regard this as silly and say that it is in fact the ground and space within which all things arise, etc. The point is, there have been many accomplishers of the former tradition who converted to the latter view but the reverse isn't true.
For those of you who have experienced them, is it possible that they are an artifact of developing an extreme sensitivity to rapidly changing sensations? Through relentlessly focusing on changing sensations, a point is reached where the mind switches to the complete opposite of impermanent compounded phenomena?
--Jake

Hi Jake!

Yeah, I'm quite impressed with Candice. It seems her realization and teaching has come up independent of, yet parallel to, the Dzogchen tradition; however, she is not unaware of Dzogchen nor does she appear to be out of contact with the writings or even Lamas teaching in the Great Perfection tradition. I think if you apply her advice about natural non-contrived awareness - which simply means being naturally undistracted and present to the 5 sense consciousnesses and the relaxing and letting be of the 6th consciousness, the natural state organically, without effort, becomes apparent. This is because our habitual patterns of being lost in the 6th consciousness, and being distracted from the others, results in obscuration of, or distraction from, the nature of mind - Rigpa. I had an interesting example of this myself yesterday. I was driving home from work along the highway and I was doing the above in a non-doing manner and Rigpa was spontaneously noticed. I realized at the time, that driving on the highway for ten minutes or more was very similar to sky-gazing practice, which is a common traditional Dzogchen Trekchod practice for realizing Rigpa. It turned out to be quite an interesting experiment. Because once home, I went shopping while in Rigpa. I wanted to see whether the act of doing so would awaken karmic traces - or habit patterns - and bring about distraction and entanglement in those forces. I watched myself remain lucid to what is, including the activation and utilization of the 6th consciousness - however, with time, concentration on thinking about what I needed to buy, navigating that process, and personal interactions with customers and attendants, I progressively became distracted and lost the lucid clarity of Rigpa. I learned a lot in the process - how we get distracted and how we can manage those habit patterns in real time.

Very cool.

cont.

Anyway, resting naturally aware, many times, till it becomes automatic is a good advice. And in many respects is helpful since it is outside of much of the ritual practice that is still inherent in the traditional Dzogchen presentation.

Hey Dave!

Interesting comments regarding the Freudian psychoanalytic tradition and psychic determinism. I take it that these forces are real and these schools of thought have some significant insights to contribute. I would suggest that these are the mechanistic forces arising out of the system that is the mind-body-ego complex - an open system like any other as per biology, physics or ecology. In Buddhist parlance they are karmic traces operating out of and through the 8 consciousnesses; however, their correspondence is not exact, as some Lamas have commented. The essential point, as I see it, is this system, like a galaxy, exists in the open clear-light space of reality, and it is this space that contains and apprehends the deterministic forces of any and all such systems, and which is the ground or base from which such systems arise and fall. Important too, is they are not distinct or separate from this ground. In this way we can see the cognizant space of reality is foundational; that is, causeless and self-existent - and it is the mind-body-ego-complex system, and its unconscious forces, that are the play of Dharamakaya - impermanent, contingent and determinant forces of cause and effect. If we accept this thesis, then we can see what is meant by awareness is not the consious mind and personality of psychoanalysis, rather, the foundational cognizant emptiness of reality itself, which is that which apprehends or knows said entities, and is none other the true natue of mind, and our natural state.

[cont.]

If we are lost in these systems, we are unenlightened - if we are awake to the basic nature of mind-reality-space and the system display - then, by definition, we are enlightened, and liberated. Liberated from what? From 'attentional' entanglement with the deterministic forces of reality. Why? Because, we are the fundamentally free, luminous space itself, which was until now, lost in distraction and identification with the display before us. However, of course, the space or Rigpa itself is not lost or touched in anyway. Kind of like being lost in a hypnotic trance staring into a TV. The movie becomes our world and life - and we suffer accordingly. With awakening to our true nature, we see the TV for what it is - and realize ourselves to be the cognizant space that apprehends itself and the TV display as none other than the same thing - the play of Dharmakaya.

In this way we can see the TV does not need to be turned off, nor is it good or bad. It does its thing - mechanical display of cause and effect - and as such, we can behold its true wonder for what it is - none other than the perfect appearance of reality. Or so it seems to me.

In kind regards,

Adam.

"Since the Burmese position on cessation is not found in any of the worlds other mystery traditions, I consider it, on principle, to be a misinterpretation of the Suttas."

Pardon me, Adam, but this is blatantly false.

Have you listened to Shizen Young's recorded work "The Science of Enlightenment"? He describes, at great length, how the activity of impermanence (arising & passing) leads to a brief event of touching the Source -- that is to say, becoming nothing -- is found in MANY other mystical traditions. He details a talk he had with a mystical Rabbi, who explained to him his meditative process. It's basically a Jewish spin on vipassana.

I'm not trying to turn this in to some kind of Theravada vs Other debate. That's not the point. I just want to make clear that the Burmese tradition is not alone in its emphasis on the Three Characteristics (however defined) and their leading to momentary cessation.

-Jackson

EDIT: Spelling.

"Nice discussion of cessation. I've often wondered if the cessation-as-nibbana paradigm is a misinterpretation of the suttas. On the face of it, it seems suspect. The best we can hope for is unconsciousness? Please."

Good point, Kenneth. I think as far as Theravada doctrines go, the Burmese idea of cessation as Nibbana doesn't quite cut the mustard. It's good to note, however, that different traditions within the Theravada lineage understand cessation a bit differently, at least as far as Arahantship is concerned.

The Thai Forest yogis, for instance (if surveying the teachings of Ajahn Maha Boowa is of any significance), the 'cessation' that brings full liberation is not the cessation of consciousness proper (i.e. fruition or NS). Rather, it is the cessation of a compelling and tightly held ignorance that there is a self somewhere back in one's consciousness. When this gets snuffed out for good, this artificial separation is no longer a problem. This more closely resembles the actual meaning of the word "nibbana", which is "going out" as if blowing out a candle. The fuel of the fire is delusion/ignorance. No more ignorance, no more delusion regarding the subject/object split.

This, of course, is the same as completing the physio-energetic circuit. That which the meditator sees as the obstacle is finally removed, whatever that obstacle is perceived to be. The sickness is cured, the longing heart satiated.

If those in the Burmese tradition hold similar views, I have yet to read/hear them articulate it as such.

"Pardon me, Adam, but this is blatantly false.

Have you listened to Shizen Young's recorded work "The Science of Enlightenment"? He describes, at great length, how the activity of impermanence (arising & passing) leads to a brief event of touching the Source -- that is to say, becoming nothing -- is found in MANY other mystical traditions. He details a talk he had with a mystical Rabbi, who explained to him his meditative process. It's basically a Jewish spin on vipassana.

I'm not trying to turn this in to some kind of Theravada vs Other debate. That's not the point. I just want to make clear that the Burmese tradition is not alone in its emphasis on the Three Characteristics (however defined) and their leading to momentary cessation.

-Jackson

EDIT: Spelling."

Hey Jackson,

You will see early on in the thread that the context of my statement was reference to ceasation as 'unconsciousness'.

To realize the source is not to be unconsious. You will see I addressed this alternative interpreation of ceasation also - one that I am arguing for.

*Indeed, I very much like the Thai Forrest Yogi's position, as you have put it, which is my rejoinder to the unconsiousness thesis.

In kind regards,

Adam. *Edited to included reference to a second post.

Hi Adam,

Well, if we return to Young (not that he is the only authoritative teacher or anything), he describes contact with the Source as: 1.) Momentary, and 2.) something you can't describe other than recalling how you got there and how you left. He also describes one characteristic of someone who is enlightened -- such as his teacher Sasaki Roshi -- as one who touches the source hundreds of times per day. There really isn't any talk of one being in the Source continually, as the activity of impermanence (expansion and contraction) are unstable, and thus polarize away from the Source experience directly after it occurs. (Of course, if everything is the activity of the Source than everything IS the Source, but that's another topic!).

Having said this, there is little difference between 'unconsciousness' and not being able to describe something. Cessation is a sort of non-experience. Whether we call it cessation or unconsciousness is inconsequential in some regards, as anytime one attempts to describe the indescribable the results stay within the realm of the theoretical.

Side-note: However, I wouldn't go as far as to say that anytime one is unconscious (such as dreamless sleep) that they are somehow dwelling in Dharmakaya, as I've heard Ken Wilber say, more or less. The jury's still out, I suppose.

I realize this is pretty 'off-topic' to your original post. So we can keep sorting it out together in another thread, if you'd like. I enjoy conversations like this, as I am able to contrast my opinions against other intelligent people in order to gain a wider perspective

*I'm glad you liked what I shared about Maha Boowa's perspective on awakening. It is the one that has been most useful to me in my practice.

-Jackson

[cont. from above]

One more thought... I wonder if referring to cessation as "wakeful discontinuity" rather than "unconsciousness" might clear up some of the issue here. It's pretty obvious to me that cessation is different than the result of someone bashing their head in to a wall. The difference could be wakefulness. Maybe not. Just shelling out some ideas

Hey Jackson,

Sounds good mate! The details are where its at. That's the fun of it all, in these discussions.

So, following Sasaki Roshi as an example of someone in contact with source hundreds of times per day, would you suggest that he is unconsious - litturally, a discontinuity of consciousness for a moment or more - hundreds of times a day?

Keep in mind I am are talking about ceasation, not as an inability to describe source etc., or even a complete ceasation of the mind-body complex, while retaining an unconditioned 'consious' realization of the Dharmakaya; rather, a littural discontinuity of consciousness - mini gaps in the conscious experience of being through time and no recolection of what took place during that period of ceasation (in hindsight). A littural 'unconsciousness' for a moment - exactly what Kenneth was refereing to in your quote of him in your earlier post, of which he was responding to my statement of this very thesis of unconsious ceasation. A thesis he has described as his personal experience of ceasation many times; with additional details, such as blissful aftereffect.

I don't believe anyone experiences what I am describing hundreds of times a day - in fact, were that the case they would likely have difficulty functioning and could not drive or oporate heavy machinery ;-P Blacking out hundreds of times a day would be very problematic.

Furthermore, I would suggest Rigpa Is source - as realization of Dharmakaya and nature of mind, and indeed, a master would experience that hundreds of times a day, if not much of the day and night.

I also believe dreamless sleep does not likely result in realization of the Dharmakaya.

In kind regards,

Adam.

Sounds promising, but I'm not sure what you mean by "wakeful discontinuity"

Adam,

Based on my own experience and by report of others, the cessation which occurs after completing a review cycle lasts a mere moment - probably less than a second in most cases. It is possible to extend the break in consciousness for longer by setting an intention to due so, but I have not done this for longer than a few seconds, and always while sitting, and while my concentration is really, really high. So, I don't think that momentary 'blips' of consciousness is something that would disrupt someone's life at all. It's not like enlightened people are narcoleptics

I'm glad we agree on the dreamless sleep issue.

What do I mean by 'wakeful discontinuity'? Well, for starters I think I mean that the discontinuity occurs while one is generally awake and attentive. Being able to experience and remember both the entrance and exit of a cessation moment implies wakefulness up to and after the event. Secondly, I think that you and I agree that Rigpa (awareness) does not blip out during cessation. As Kenneth and I sorted out on the DhO forum a while back, Rigpa is awareness, not a storehouse for memories. So Rigpa is ever wakeful, even during cessation. While alert, the only continuity of a discontinuity experience is awareness without remainder - ever fresh, and always NOW, not concerned with before or after. So while there is a discontinuity of individual consciousness, which is the mind/body process, wakefulness remains. Again, this borders on the theoretical, but it can be supported by observing the way awareness, consciousness, and form interact during continuity (i.e. most of the time).

What do you think?

-Jackson

"Adam,

Based on my own experience and by report of others, the cessation which occurs after completing a review cycle lasts a mere moment - probably less than a second in most cases ... So, I don't think that momentary 'blips' of consciousness is something that would disrupt someone's life at all. It's not like enlightened people are narcoleptics ...

"

Hi Jackson,

So, if I've read you correctly, you would propose that cessation - as contact with source, as daily experienced by Sasaki Roshi - is not experienced as a 'winking-out' and momentary unconsciousness, but rather a very brief discontinuity, that is effectively unnoticed by the conscious mind - like the discontinuity in consciousness of one's surroundings when blinking one's eyes - except for its after effects of bliss? Is that right?

It is true that our conscious experience as continuous is an illusion of the brain in any case, so "very" briefs gaps like in blinking, is rarely a problem, unless we are in an intense sword fight or some other risk-taking behavior. But is unnoticed cessations what is referenced to in the Burmese tradition?

Interesting!

[cont.] edited for typo

It seems to me, on the face of it, the length of time it would take to blink one's eyes, which we all do hundreds of times daily, would be the maximum of unconsciousness that we could endure as an ongoing daily phenomenon without impairing functioning. Any longer and it, I would suggest, like a micro-sleep, would result in accidents.

My experience seems to be consistent with Kenneth's and others on this list, and probably yours too, where there is a genuine unconsciousness for a moment - like a micro-sleep while driving - and thus, it is in the conscious and noticeable range, and this indeed would impair daily functioning where acute attention is required like in a sword fighting, surgery or driving. I would not want one to happen to me during those times. ;-P

If the above is what is meant by Roshi being in contact with source, and the suggestion is that an enlightened person 'winks out' briefly hundreds of times a day, in noticeable periods of unconsciousness, then I again, I find no support for this outside of the Burmese tradition, and prima facie, I don't consider it very plausible either, as a daily experience for someone who is mostly in contact with "source" throughout the day.

I've got the Science of Enlightenment, could you direct me to where I might find this discussion.

Thanks Jackson! Interesting discussion.

Hey Alex, you're our resident Buddhist scholar around here, would you add to this discussion - your clarifications are always enlightening to me.

In kind regards,

Adam.

"So Rigpa is ever wakeful, even during cessation. While alert, the only continuity of a discontinuity experience is awareness without remainder - ever fresh, and always NOW, not concerned with before or after. So while there is a discontinuity of individual consciousness, which is the mind/body process, wakefulness remains. Again, this borders on the theoretical, but it can be supported by observing the way awareness, consciousness, and form interact during continuity (i.e. most of the time).

What do you think?

-Jackson"

Definitely. However, we could not be in Rigpa and be unconscious at the same time as per Burmese cessation; as Rigpa, by definition, is to consciously 'know' the nature of mind or Dharmakaya. A different definition of cessation may be cessation of the body-mind complex, leaving only a direct experience of Rigpa without awareness of mind and body; however, Rigpa is not like that. However, it could be in dreamless sleep, when the 6 consciousnesses are inoperative. I know one such adept who reports this. In Rigpa, mind and body is known simultaneously as the display of Dharmakay, and most definitely is inclusive, conscious and pristinely fresh, as you have said.

So, it appears they are two different things.

I'd like to hear about your take on their relationship, and difference, if any. I'm talking about this with Chuck over at the DhO.

In kind regards,

Adam.

"Definitely. However, we could not be in Rigpa and be unconscious at the same time as per Burmese cessation; as Rigpa, by definition, is to consciously 'know' the nature of mind or Dharmakaya. A different definition of cessation may be cessation of the body-mind complex, leaving only a direct experience of Rigpa without awareness of mind and body; however, Rigpa is not like that. However, it could be in dreamless sleep, when the 6 consciousnesses are inoperative. I know one such adept who reports this. In Rigpa, mind and body is known simultaneously as the display of Dharmakay, and most definitely is inclusive, conscious and pristinely fresh, as you have said.

So, it appears they are two different things.

I'd like to hear about your take on their relationship, and difference, if any. I'm talking about this with Chuck over at the DhO.

In kind regards,

Adam."

Hey Adam,

I love this (the above quotation). Makes perfect sense to me

I'll listen to T.S.O.E. again when I get the chance and try to find the discussion for you. I could be misinterpreting Young, so it would be good to have someone else's take on his exposition.

Talk to you later,

Jackson

Sounds great mate!

I just wanted to clarify my above statement regarding dreamless sleep. What I meant to say, is in conscious dreamless sleep, the 6th consciousness is inoperative - the other five are still active though, so one, according to this adept, and others, hears oneself snoring, feels oneself breathing - and lying in sleep paralysis - and so on. So the body and mind is entirely asleep, and yet there is lucid clarity of awareness in what appears to be Rigpa - or clear-light - throughout the 24 hour awake and sleep cycle.

Very interesting. I've only had the most brief moments of this very sparingly.

An interesting anecdote from the Advaita and Yogic traditions, is there are many adepts that have been frequently reported to drop involuntarily into the complete cessation of mind and body throughout the day, and thus, be in a super-conscious samadhi state where they take Nirvana as object, or in their view, union with Brahman - realization of self as pure universal consciousness. Which I take to be an unconditioned realization of the Dharmakaya; however, on doctrinal points of theology, Buddhists would deny it is the same thing. In any case, it is a 'super' conscious event, and certainly not unconscious - although the adept would appear that way to the outside observer.

In kind regards,

Adam.