The Great Freedom.

"Jackson: "I think we're on to a good, solid, perhaps even unified phenomenological meta-theory of meditative experience."

LOL. Ya gotta love a good solid unified phenomenological meta-theory!

But seriously, I agree, there is great stuff evolving on this thread."

I though you'd appreciate that

"Vipassana seems to be unique in its insistence upon high frequency noticing of micro phenomena. Interestingly, even though vipassana proponents often point to this particular kind of noticing as the key to vipassana's success, schools that don't teach high speed, high resolution noticing also have success. In other words, their students get enlightened. It would seem then, that micro-attention is not the key ingredient after all. In fact, the common denominator between the successful schools is surely none other than concentration. Uh-oh, I may have stirred up a hornet's nest now! "

Yes, concentration is probably the most important aspect of all the practices that lead to enlightenment. However, I'd have to add "inquiry" or "investigation" to the equation. Practice enough concentration and investigation, and you'll get enlightened.

"Here's a variation on Chuck's "rigpa overload:" maybe when the unconditioned is approached in serial mode it results in cessation and when it's approached in parallel mode it results in rigpa. "

Nice! This I find intuitively appealing. Also the clarification that cessation occurs while "the mind is focused on an object" seems to square with my intuition that cessation may be an artifact of a particular approach in which that approach pursued consistently flips to its opposite. Is it possible to experience paths and fruitions without cessations? Is the experience of cessation pretty well tied to the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition and noting practice? It seems like there are different opinions here; I'm pretty ignorant of differences between Theravada traditions beyond the broad outlines.
--Jake

Ah, you all answered al my questions. I didn't realize there had been so many darn posts since I stepped away from my computer. Hot topic! Nice with the articulation paradigm.
Jackson et. al, have you ever read "From Reductionism to Creativity" by Herbert Guenther? The sections on Dzogchen are fascinating. I have mixed feelings about the guy but he has a really neat model of symetry breaking in Being (zhi in Tibetan) in which being-in-its-beingness-- the smooth, formless unconditioned, Dharmakaya, undergoes a symetry-aproximation transformation into a holomovement of its self-lighting, i.e., now there is form but it's still utterly translucent to the transparent being-as-such,-- i.e. Samboghakaya, which itself undergoes another symetry-transformation, this time one in which the symetry seems to be completely broken. This level (kun-zhi in Tibetan, Alaya Vijnana) is that on which the myriad individual karmic systems evolve (i.e., develop the other 7 consciousnesses) and have the opprtunity to recognize their primordial wholeness (rigpa, in which the level of apparent fragmentation is seen as it really is in its "asymetrical" wholeness-- i.e., Nirmanakaya) or be conditioned by the arising phenomena (ma-rigpa, Samsara). This sounds similar to your "articulation" model..
--Jake

Jake: "Is it possible to experience paths and fruitions without cessations?"

Hi Jake,

I believe that Paths, jhanas, ñanas, and cessations are all part of the developmental package, aka the physio-energetic process. But that doesn't mean you have to be aware of them in order for them to do their work. As a parallel, there are probably any number of neurological changes that correlate with this same process but are transparent to us. It just happens that the high resolution observation that is fostered by Mahasi noting practice makes some aspects of the physio-energetic process visible (or tangible). And because we humans always conflate correlation with causality, if we are Mahasi adepts we imagine that the high resolution noting caused the progress. Ha, ha on us.

A little reality testing shows that the physio-energetic process can take place with or without high speed, high resolution noting, and that there is quite a broad spectrum of practices that lead to developmental enlightenment.

"Jake: "Is it possible to experience paths and fruitions without cessations?"

Hi Jake,

I believe that Paths, jhanas, ñanas, and cessations are all part of the developmental package, aka the physio-energetic process. But that doesn't mean you have to be aware of them in order for them to do their work. As a parallel, there are probably any number of neurological changes that correlate with this same process but are transparent to us. It just happens that the high resolution observation that is fostered by Mahasi noting practice makes some aspects of the physio-energetic process visible (or tangible). And because we humans always conflate correlation with causality, if we are Mahasi adepts we imagine that the high resolution noting caused the progress. Ha, ha on us.

A little reality testing shows that the physio-energetic process can take place with or without high speed, high resolution noting, and that there is quite a broad spectrum of practices that lead to developmental enlightenment."

Here, here!!

You're on a role today, Kenneth.

"Yes, concentration is probably the most important aspect of all the practices that lead to enlightenment. However, I'd have to add "inquiry" or "investigation" to the equation. Practice enough concentration and investigation, and you'll get enlightened."

Other schools use words like 'tranquillity' and 'harmonious' instead of 'concentration' - and this also works. So maybe something like 'attentive awareness at one or more sense doors'?

"Other schools use words like 'tranquillity' and 'harmonious' instead of 'concentration' - and this also works. So maybe something like 'attentive awareness at one or more sense doors'? -Chuck"

Nice.

"Yes, concentration is probably the most important aspect of all the practices that lead to enlightenment. However, I'd have to add "inquiry" or "investigation" to the equation. Practice enough concentration and investigation, and you'll get enlightened."

Yeah, I'd like to phrase it as 'undistractedness', which encompasses all of the above, with variations thereof; with the point being, that one is present to what is, in one form or another, persistent through time (during practice, in a contrived manner at first, and effortlessly on and off the cushion as we settle into the integration of practice with general life) - path movement will result, as Tarin has stated elsewhere - I like that phrase - or one may 'cut through' to instant realization of that which is present or presence.

In kind regards,

Adam.

And this from DhO a while back:

Consider Centred Prayer, Maharshi's Self-Enquiry and Gurdjieff's Fourth Way. None of them offer the others' 'fundamental' or 'absolute' characteristics of reality, but each leads to fruition (I'm speaking from experience). In light of this, I'm of the opinion that simply observing reality is the key to the progress of insight, and vipassana (looking for the three characteristics) is just one more method for keeping the mind present and attentive, just like consenting to God's presence, finding the feeling of self or 'splitting the attention' "

dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/thread/169...hree+Characteristics

Apparently no practice at all is needed for some people.

They often have no language to relate what has happened to them. Shinzen Young relates a story of one old woman who said, "One morning I woke up and I was just - Big."

What Vipassana seems good for is the observation of micro-landmarks - it's probably the best for making maps.

Maybe people like that woman actually do practice but just don't call it that or know what caused the changes. It wouldn't be all that weird for some individuals to enter into mental habits that lead to advancing down the psycho-energetic development path, leading eventually to enlightenment. Or maybe you can be born "closer" to the path, or "further" from it.

Fascinating conversation! Thanks to all of you.

Awesome point--- let's not forget that anything that leads down the path whether concentration, investigation, rigpa or whatever is really and truly a simple facet of experiencing, native to experience, completely natural, which just naturally becomes more and more intense until it's intense enough to confer lasting effects on the process of experiencing and its behavioral expressions. Whether the natural intensification is preceded by a process of deliberate cultivation of attention or awareness or not and whether that process of intensification occurs in an instant or punctuated equilibrium or gentle slope or any combination--- same process.

Hey Dave,

There is actually a significant number of case studies or instances where people do not practice at all, as you say, and simply wake up, literally from sleep in their bed in a completely normal manner, and find themselves enlightened. There is something about the transition from sleep to wakefulness, like death in the Tibetan tradition, where one has an opportunity to wake up the their natural state.

Very interesting. Sleep practice is so important for this reason.

In kind regards,

Adam.