The Great Freedom.

Hey guys! Fascinating topic. A few experiences which I've had and wonder how you guys might characterize them r.e. Rigpa, Jhanna, etc. 1. The other day while sitting I experienced the complete cessation of attention and the implicit sense that a point was attending to an object which comes with it. I don't recall any other sort of cessation, however the experience of Universe as Empty Impermanence seeing itself as and through the perspective of this bodymind was quite distinct. There was no suffering, desire, center/circumference, etc. although the whole sensate field was clearly presencing. Open awareness was clear but the emphasis was on the sensate field as Empty Impermanence. Walking around like that would seem to be as much liberation as I could possibly want. It occurred while noticing the nanas cycle within EQ as modulations of the same. WHen attention re-arose, it felt lurching and nauseating and the essence of distraction even though it first arose as noticing clearly the 3-characteristics of the breath. After some back and forth between the simplicity and the normal functioning, normal functioning re-established itself with the nauseating dissorienting quality pervading attentional movement for a few days in which the only relief was "resting for short moments" which has become spectacularly easy since then. Cessation as cessation of grasping at self? Just a pretty experience? Common manifestation of 11 nana or something else?

2: While practicing instructions for integrating Rigpa w/ sleep and dreaming several years ago I fell asleep with lucidity which re-arose during dreaming, and with the development of the dream dawned as rigpa in dreaming. From that vantage point I lucidly saw the dream state dissolve within lucidity into literally dreamless sleep. This was no experience of 6th sense field being inactive while the other 5 kept going and the body was paralyzed; I've had those as long as I can remember and this was quite different. In it there was actual dreamless sleep, no consciousnesses 1-6, no sense of subjectivity, no karmic traces-- i.e., as far as I can tell, no consciousnesses 1-8. Just "wakeful emptiness" or completely still, silent space w/rigpa. Again, no sense of foreground or background, etc. Was this a formless jhanna? Clear light? What do you think?
R.e. the intersting discussion of Sasaaki Roshi: In my experience of the path there seems to be a movement from polarity to paradox in which the new territory is disclosed at first by "swinging" away from the old way into the new, oscilattion between them, and finally the dawning of their simulteniety. Perhaps this is due to a karmic tendency towards the Dzogchen path which definitely seems to be structured this way. In this light, the "difference" between source and manifestation would feel like a polarity one oscilated between until the tendency to associate the sense of identity with one or other pole and the consequent sense of their incompatability becomes exhausted and a sense of their paradoxical simultaneity dawns.
--Jake

"Just "wakeful emptiness" or completely still, silent space w/rigpa. Again, no sense of foreground or background, etc. Was this a formless jhanna? Clear light? "

Hey Jake!

That's very cool! Thanks for sharing. At first sight, that would appear to be the realization of clear-light. What is your interpretation?

What was the source of the instruction for integrating Rigpa with sleep - formal transmission from a Lama, or the generic material published in the Books by Norbu Rinpoche and others?

I gotta go to work, chat some more later.

In kind regards,

Adam.

Hey Adam!
I had recieved transmission from Norbu via the video transmission that winter and was scheduled to attend a week long retreat with him that June. In between I was reading voraciously; something had clicked during the transmission that I couldn't wrap my mind around (oh, the years I wasted trying! Hahaha) which I now recognize as Rigpa. That's why I'm keen to point out the "jump-start" aspect of transmission as different from the pointing out, because it was a while before I understood the light that had been turned on during the transmission. In fact, I'm still understanding that first glimpse more and more! At the time I didn't get it at all, but I was actually presencing Rigpa fairly strongly for an hour or two after the transmission.
Anyway, between transmission and retreat I tried the practices from his Yogas of Dream and Sleep book with the different watches of the night, postures, visualizations etc. and had a nice brief lucid dream. Then I got ahold of the Cycle of Day and Night which has a much simpler practice of visualizing a tiny rainbow tigle/A in the brow before falling asleep. As soon as I visualized it that night (and I'm a horrible visualizer) it was just stamped to my forhead with a distinct pressure and clarity, like I was being branded on my third eye, and I fell asleep in that instant! Obviously I didn't maintain presence throughout the night and when the dream arose, very vivid, that's when my memories begin. (con't)

The first part of the dream was vivid but not lucid and I felt a strong urge to urinate. Finally a kindly but ugly dakini showed me to a place where I could go and I passed a dark substance which smelled like marijuana resin! As soon as my system was purified of the gunk, POW! full blown lucidity and in and out of rigpa until the dream dissolved into what I can only call the clear light; very clear emptiness with no sense of duality whatsoever yet no movements at all.
Later at the retreat in conversations with more advanced practitioners I learned two things: 1, it's pretty common at least in their experience that the books and other texts have a "blessing" in which when you first use them you get a pretty full blown preview of what the practice is like when "done" correctly. First time's free in other words, but don't take it too seriously. If you want more, that's entirely up to you. Second, pot smoking is bad for your practice! haha!~ ;-}

Hi there,

Sorry Jake, I don't want to interrupt, but I wanted to raise a few issues that occurred to me when reading the previous discussion between Adam and Jackson.

As a disclaimer, these are conclusions I reached with my rational mind regarding the big (probable Path) cessations I experienced closely observing what happened immediately before and especially in the immediate moments after the discontinuity. They are purely speculative in a certain sense.

This is the data that these comments are based on: Experience immediately prior to the discontinuity is variable and may depend upon the door one enters through. I believe mine were through the suffering door, and were usually accompanied by a sense of throbbing of the entire sensory field of awareness - then a jolt, as if I had been hit painlessly on the head and knocked out and the universe restarted. Definitely the sense of the universe "re-booting". It's hard to put this in linear terms, but at first there was pure awareness without *any* sense of self as the universe and body reforms - pure awe, eternity, and unity (being That). Words fail, but "Being one with God, all that is and is not" comes close - is the immediate sense in the first nanoseconds after the discontinuity. As the embodied experience of the Universe reforms, the environment would begin to enter awareness as such, but initially there would be no sense of separation from it, and *then* the sense of self would begin to reform, and thought would begin to enter, with an "Oh my God! What was that?!!" (Now these discontinuities do not feel this way, and are rather ordinary but then again, there is no permanent sense of self to dissolve).

Now here are the conclusions: the discontinuity is inferred, not experienced, through the radical shift in awareness that occurs and the lack of contiguity between the former state and one's immediate recollection

Kenneth: 'I've often wondered if the cessation-as-nibbana paradigm is a misinterpretation of the suttas.'

I never experienced cessations. Enough people speak of it that I have to accept it. Maybe I had them but wasn't trained to notice them. That is a possibility but not a certainty. Fact is, I didn't experience them. The 'why' is unknown. But I did experience something during paths and it was much more like 'awareness of awareness'.

Visuddhimagga is a commentary on the suttas so an interpretation. My sense is its purpose was as a training manual '“ a way of charting a course through the suttas.

On access to insight Than. Geoff lists ~ 20 verbs used to describe nibana and none suggest unconsciousness '“ words like 'wondrous'.

Adam: 'working theory: cessation in terms of unconsciousness is directly linked to the difference between the realization of Rigpa and 24 hour consciousness through dreamless sleep on one side of attainment, and the completion of energetic circuitry of the kundalini/chakras of 4th path on the other. They are two difference things, and by analogy, may be considered two different parallel circuits or systems. Rigpa being a conscious realization of the Dharmakaya is foundational, ..., with cessation as unconsciousness as being incomplete, and stage specific.'

I don't see these as two parallel systems but overall we are basically in 'violent agreement' (as a friend of mine used to say). As I mentioned above, I never experienced cessations '“ blank spots between paths is how I imagine them '“ There was instead a continuum of awareness '“ though immeasurably vast.

Could cessations simply be because the experiencer could not take in or process what happened at that moment? I think Adam is suggesting this '“ I think this is quite possible. Cessation could be rigpa overload.

-Chuck

Continued from post #30
There is the sense that something happened "in there" which is very important, but whatever it was, it's meaningless to speak of it in terms of time, or content, sensation, or anything else - and there's definitely no one there to experience it. Whatever it is, it's outside of, and inclusive of, all experience. That's why I can't understand it when people say "I experienced cessation for a few seconds" or any other length of time - how could they possibly know? Possibly an outside observer could know, but I'm not sure how. Otherwise, from a temporal perspective, it's just guessing with the possible exception of Nirodha Sampatti where one might be able to employ a clock. My own view is that there is *no* literal discontinuity in temporal events but that the experience is timeless and takes place outside of linear time completely (though moments of awareness of it might be cited within the temporal sequence of events).

Young intends to communicate, I believe, that these moments of timeless awareness of pure formlessness take place hundreds of times a *second* in a dance with form, for those who are deeply enlightened - rather like a movie has a static image projected, a moment of formlessness, and then the next static image of form, and so on...

Now I realize that these sets of descriptions contain a paradox - on the one hand I'm saying that there is no real temporal discontinuity - there is a discontinuity in consciousness, and on the other, I'm speaking of nano-moments of timeless, ego-less "awareness" when by definition, the cessations do not contain awareness. I can't completely explain it, except to say that there is some notion of the singularity one can't remember in the cessation and that Everything is both what it is, and That, simultaneously...

Edited for final comments

David

"There is the sense that something happened "in there" which is very important, but whatever it was, it's meaningless to speak of it in terms of time, or content, sensation, or anything else - and there's definitely no one there to experience it. Whatever it is, it's outside of, and inclusive of, all experience. That's why I can't understand it when people say "I experienced cessation for a few seconds" or any other length of time - how could they possibly know? Possibly an outside observer could know, but I'm not sure how. Otherwise, from a temporal perspective, it's just guessing with the possible exception of Nirodha Sampatti where one might be able to employ a clock. My own view is that there is *no* literal discontinuity in temporal events but that the experience is timeless and takes place outside of linear time completely (though moments of awareness of it might be cited within the temporal sequence of events)."

Hi David. Thanks for your comments! Great stuff

Counting exactly how many seconds one was in cessation is always guess work. Thus, it can lead us to think that no real cessation occurs at all, or that the duration is so short it becomes irrelevant.

However, the primary object I use for vipassana is the rise and fall of my abdomen and chest as breaths go in and out. During suffering door fruitions/cessations, I have been able to remember the position of my abdomen at the start of cessation, and then recognize it's position afterward. (I remember describing this to Daniel shortly after getting First Path.) I would have a fruition somewhere at the start of an in breath, and exit when the breath had fully extended my abdomen. In other words, the time it took for the event to occur was about the length of one in-breath -- probably anywhere from two to four seconds. Just a guess.

cont.

cont. from above.

So I think actual cessation does occur, in that there is a real temporal interruption that takes place.

I also wanted to comment on your description of the condition of consciousness post fruition. Describing it as a "reboot" is consistent with my experience, and is the case for both review fruitions and macro Path fruitions. The progressive re-selfing, you describe is also consistent with my experience. I've noticed that it's even more pronounced during the first moments following Nirodha Samapatti, in which my awareness is seemingly completely and utterly bare/pure. A progressive process occurs whereby particulars become more and more pronounced, with the "self" being the last duality to fully return. I guess we could call this phenomenon "particulation". The difference between the particulation that occurs following the cycle transition fruitions and the exit from NS is the energy behind them. Cycle transition fruitions usually bring a wonderful bliss wave, where NS exits are bare bones - at least in my experience.

I don't know if any of this is valuable for the discussion, but it's what came to mind.

~Jackson

"
However, the primary object I use for vipassana is the rise and fall of my abdomen and chest as breaths go in and out. During suffering door fruitions/cessations, I have been able to remember the position of my abdomen at the start of cessation, and then recognize it's position afterward. "

Hmnn... well, if this is true, then I stand corrected.

I remember James Austin claiming he had found a physiological marker for "no-thought" which was that the meditator's breath paused, and then had no compensatory overbreathing. Then again, he does not identify this "no-thought" with kensho, and relates that to a neural mechanism that somehow blocks input from the thalamus, simultaneously with input from the temporal lobes - resulting in a disembodied, timeless, selfless awareness without sensory content...

Do you agree with the movie analogy given regarding the dance of form and formlessness many times a second?

David

"Could cessations simply be because the experiencer could not take in or process what happened at that moment? I think Adam is suggesting this '“ I think this is quite possible. Cessation could be rigpa overload.

-Chuck"

I like this hypothesis, Chuck

Perhaps cessation is merely the taking of nibbana/Rigpa as the sole object for a moment, to the exclusion of all else. Without the other mental faculties available, including those which keep track of time and memory, there's no way to really describe what occurred. Since Rigpa may be remembered in waking experience, and has an atemporal quality, this hypothesis seems somewhat believable.

Your comments were very insightful, as always.

~Jackson

Hey guys, wish I had more time to weigh in but briefly: my own experience with cessations is best described by David and Jackson. They are very, very brief, not more that a few seconds but more often only a small fraction of a second long. The human mind appears to me to be quite capable of processing information and accessing experience at an extremely high frequency, so I believe a lot can go on in a half a second. A lot. So I personally agree with David's description consisting of form and formlessness winking in and out many times inside a second, but of course I can't prove it.

Just prior to cessations I have a distinct feeling of anticipation, almost achingly so, inside the front of my head. It's a sort of itch that gets scratched by the cessation itself.

And again like David, I think there IS meaning to these things, though I'm hard pressed to describe it very well. I believe, but cannot prove, that cessations are a window into things we simply can't process linguistically or symbolically but can sort of grok in a subliminal "felt" manner.

Hi All,

Great discussion about a very interesting topic. I have been pretty busy these days, but I also tried to clarify these issues and even discussed it with two advanced Zen practitioners.

Our conclusion is that what is called enlightenment in the Mahayana is clearly related to the non-dual, namely what we call Rigpa or Buddha-nature on the forum.

As to Nirodha, we do not think that it is enlightenment as such. We see it at the shutting down of the 6th consciousness. However, if it is not directly related to non-dual enlightenment, it seems that cessation is a great opportunity to recognize the Dharmakaya or Buddha Mind right after during the initial 'reboot process', namely when awareness comes back in its purest form as Jnana (Skt. knowledge; Tib. rigpa) and not yet as Vi-jnana (Skt. consciousness - 5th aggregate).

-Alex

BTW - I believe we, in all the traditions, are describing similar things that ultimately relate to anatomical/biological phenomena in the human brain. One day I hope we'll have the ability to measure and analyze this stuff because that could lead to a much more accessible path to enlightenment. Thinking about the amount of time (total and elapsed) that I've spent to get to where I am today it's really quite a daunting investment.. If we believe enlightenment is even minimally helpful to humanity at large we need a way that is less time consuming and less difficult.

"Hmnn... well, if this is true, then I stand corrected.

"

Now that I'm thinking about it, I believe I may have conceded the point too quickly.

Jackson wrote: "Describing it as a "reboot" is consistent with my experience, and is the case for both review fruitions and macro Path fruitions. The progressive re-selfing, you describe is also consistent with my experience. I've noticed that it's even more pronounced during the first moments following Nirodha Samapatti, in which my awareness is seemingly completely and utterly bare/pure. A progressive process occurs whereby particulars become more and more pronounced, with the "self" being the last duality to fully return. I guess we could call this phenomenon "particulation"."

Here's the problem I'm noticing, Jackson: At what point in the "re-boot" can you remember to check the position of your abdomen? I'm thinking that the "reboot" takes a second or two, and that probably one couldn't remember to check the abdominal position until all systems are back online, if you will. The idea that the actual discontinuity does not take place in time may not be dead in the water after all.

The questions that have to be addressed are, how long would you think the entire "particulation" process takes, when does one begin to be able to measure time, and how does one account for the time distortion that tends to accompany high states of concentration?

Great discussion!

David

A little naive clarification-- why can't you be looking at a clock when inducing cessations? If I read correctly, it was claimed that one could do so with Nirodha Samapatti but not cessations? Does everyone agree?
Also, some people seem to be saying blatantly that there is "awareness" in the cessation and others say not so. That sounds like a terminological difference; if you're claiming "no awareness" are you differentiating awareness from the fifth skandha and from the witness? The latter two states arise and pass. rigpa just doesn't seem to do that at all. In my experience every critique I've heard a theravaden level at dzogchen is based on conflating 5th skandha with rigpa and saying that the latter is a contradiction of impermanence and no-self, which it would be if it were a permanent fifth skandha self.
I like the Rigpa overload theory; perhaps if one has no articulatory structure to handle it, the blip in which the "manifest" is interupted and there's only the clear light of the base would definitely seem like a totally ineffable non-experience etc etc. But language can't say what anything is, so the fact that it can't say what nothing is doesn't impress me... Then again, I'm completely ignorant when it comes to "cessations"-- but if they depend on a certain interprative framework being present, I always will be!

Here's a variation on Chuck's "rigpa overload:" maybe when the unconditioned is approached in serial mode it results in cessation and when it's approached in parallel mode it results in rigpa. I was experimenting with both phenomena this afternoon while sitting in the car waiting for my wife to pick up some groceries. Cessations come when the mind is focused on an object. One way this can happen is when the mind is flickering like a strobe light. Rigpa, on the other hand, happens when the mind does not take an object at all. I would say that it's the default state of the mind. But that doesn't mean that nothing is going on; it's just that awareness is seen as the foreground, with transparent phenomena arising and passing in the background.

By the way, Chuck, you attributed a quote to me that may not be mine. In post #31, you wrote:

Kenneth: 'working theory: cessation in terms of unconsciousness is directly linked to the difference between the realization of Rigpa and 24 hour consciousness through dreamless sleep on one side of attainment, and the completion of energetic circuitry of the kundalini/chakras of 4th path on the other. They are two difference things, and by analogy, may be considered two different parallel circuits or systems. Rigpa being a conscious realization of the Dharmakaya is foundational, ..., with cessation as unconsciousness as being incomplete, and stage specific.'

Where does the quote come from?

Kenneth

" A little naive clarification-- why can't you be looking at a clock when inducing cessations? If I read correctly, it was claimed that one could do so with Nirodha Samapatti but not cessations? Does everyone agree?
Also, some people seem to be saying blatantly that there is "awareness" in the cessation and others say not so. That sounds like a terminological difference; if you're claiming "no awareness" are you differentiating awareness from the fifth skandha and from the witness? "

The main difference between Nirodha Sampatti and other cessations is that the former is said to be a cessation that can last up to a few days in the traditional literature.

I mentioned the contradiction in my post regarding awareness vs. no awareness - the real problem is that it's just hard to tell coming out of one whether there is or not - so much so that I never paid much attention to the discontinuity itself but rather more to the "reboot" part. I never could get a good look at the former. I would lean towards "no" but don't hold me to it. It's very hard to separate the initial stages of the reboot or "particularization" from the actual cessation. In the early stages of the re-boot, linear cognition or self-hood simply isn't present - so early on, no witness, and before that, an interruption in the fifth skanda, or aggregate.

"Now that I'm thinking about it, I believe I may have conceded the point too quickly.

Jackson wrote: "Describing it as a "reboot" is consistent with my experience, and is the case for both review fruitions and macro Path fruitions. The progressive re-selfing, you describe is also consistent with my experience. I've noticed that it's even more pronounced during the first moments following Nirodha Samapatti, in which my awareness is seemingly completely and utterly bare/pure. A progressive process occurs whereby particulars become more and more pronounced, with the "self" being the last duality to fully return. I guess we could call this phenomenon "particulation"."

Here's the problem I'm noticing, Jackson: At what point in the "re-boot" can you remember to check the position of your abdomen? I'm thinking that the "reboot" takes a second or two, and that probably one couldn't remember to check the abdominal position until all systems are back online, if you will. The idea that the actual discontinuity does not take place in time may not be dead in the water after all.

The questions that have to be addressed are, how long would you think the entire "particulation" process takes, when does one begin to be able to measure time, and how does one account for the time distortion that tends to accompany high states of concentration?

Great discussion!

David

"

Wow! Way to take this discussion to another level

The idea that one would not remember to check the position of the abdomen until all systems are back online is intriguing. It could very well explain why certain cessation/fruition experiences seem to last longer than others.

cont. below.

cont. from above.

That said, it all depends on the type of cessation. Most of the fruitions that come after regular cycling aren't as dramatic as NS or macro-Path fruitions*. The system reboots, but the process of "particulation" or "re-particulation" takes mere moments. There isn't really a lapse in memory, so much as a lapse in input. They come as more of a hiccup.

NS, however, is a completely different animal in my experience. For me, the post-NS particulation seems to take longer. It's hard to say how long, however, as the faculties necessary for keeping track of time probably don't arise until the selfing process is completed -- even time needs a reference point, thanks to relativity and all. This is all a big round-about way of saying... I guess I really don't know!

At this point, it's hard to do anything but speculate what 'may' be occurring during this process. Well, at least at my current level of experience.

And David, I think it's really neat that you describe your experiences in a way that resonates so clearly with the way things unfold in my practice. We use a similar vocabulary. I don't know if that's because we hang in the same dharma forums or if it we're both just choosing the most appropriate terms for what we experience.

~Jackson

""rigpa overload:" maybe when the unconditioned is approached in serial mode it results in cessation and when it's approached in parallel mode it results in rigpa. I was experimenting with both phenomena this afternoon while sitting in the car waiting for my wife to pick up some groceries. Cessations come when the mind is focused on an object. One way this can happen is when the mind is flickering like a strobe light. Rigpa, on the other hand, happens when the mind does not take an object at all. I would say that it's the default state of the mind. But that doesn't mean that nothing is going on; it's just that awareness is seen as the foreground, with transparent phenomena arising and passing in the background.

By the way, Chuck, you attributed a quote to me that may not be mine. In post #31, you wrote:.....Where does the quote come from?
Kenneth"

Hi Kenneth,
On the quote: Sorry about that, should read 'Adam'.

I think you may have it here Kenneth. Sounds good to me. This would explain why cessations seem so common with the noting practice. My own practice was resting in openness - much more like your rigpa practice. Good observation.

"Here's a variation on Chuck's "rigpa overload:" maybe when the unconditioned is approached in serial mode it results in cessation and when it's approached in parallel mode it results in rigpa... Cessations come when the mind is focused on an object. One way this can happen is when the mind is flickering like a strobe light. Rigpa, on the other hand, happens when the mind does not take an object at all. I would say that it's the default state of the mind. But that doesn't mean that nothing is going on; it's just that awareness is seen as the foreground, with transparent phenomena arising and passing in the background."

Kenneth, this sounds solid to me. I was thinking about this same topic on the way back from getting groceries today (funny how we were doing related activities).

I wish we could have taken the rigpa and cessation conversation in this direction when we were trying to work it all out with some of the other DhO dudes a while back. I think we're on to a good, solid, perhaps even unified phenomenological meta-theory of meditative experience. What fun!!! I don't know for sure how we came to a place when such an explanation became necessary, but we have. And where there's a need, there will be those who utilize their creativity to fulfill it.

"Me: A progressive process occurs whereby particulars become more and more pronounced, with the "self" being the last duality to fully return. I guess we could call this phenomenon "particulation"."

Regarding my above posts, where I use the term "particulation", I should have been using the term "articulation".

In Christine Skarda's book "The Perceptual Form of Life" she defines 'articulation' as, "a dynamic process that takes apart or breaks up an holistic phenomenon" (pg. 2). She goes on to say...

"Here is an example. When a softball crashes into a window, the pane of glass that it hits undergoes articulation: the pane of glass--a holistic phenomenon--shatters, and pieces are created that did not exist before the ball hit the window. This is articulation. This example also neatly demonstrates the relation between the process of articulation and holism that is emphasized in this book. Holism always precedes articulation, just as the whole pane of glass precedes the shards of glass into which it is broken by the ball."

This better explains the process that occurs for me post-fruition and post-NS. There is an experienced non-dual holism, which then begins a process of articulation that lasts only a few moments in most cases. I'm going to read her book again to get a better grasp of her ideas. If anyone else wants to do the same, the full book can be downloaded in PDF form at the following link...

www.heumanwrites.com/christineskarda/christine-skarda-book.htm

Jackson: "I think we're on to a good, solid, perhaps even unified phenomenological meta-theory of meditative experience."

LOL. Ya gotta love a good solid unified phenomenological meta-theory!

But seriously, I agree, there is great stuff evolving on this thread.

Chuck: "This would explain why cessations seem so common with the noting practice. My own practice was resting in openness."

Yes, this makes sense. It's not uncommon for advanced yogis to report that they have no experience of cessations even though they have been through the territory where cessations occur for vipassana yogis. I've recently worked with perhaps a half-dozen advanced yogis from various non-vipassana traditions who were able to identify cessations in their current experience after a brief training in vipassana and detailed instructions on identifying cessations.

Vipassana seems to be unique in its insistence upon high frequency noticing of micro phenomena. Interestingly, even though vipassana proponents often point to this particular kind of noticing as the key to vipassana's success, schools that don't teach high speed, high resolution noticing also have success. In other words, their students get enlightened. It would seem then, that micro-attention is not the key ingredient after all. In fact, the common denominator between the successful schools is surely none other than concentration. Uh-oh, I may have stirred up a hornet's nest now!

P.S. Chuck, thanks for fixing that attribution in post 31.

Kenneth