Psychic Powers

I thought others may benefit from being in on private messages between David (Haquan) an myself. Originally I considered the matter off topic, but I have changed my mind as I have got into it. Kenneth if I have called it wrong you are welcome to move it . Of course all are welcome to chime in here.

Hi David,

I am looking for a few pointers about psychic phenomena, an area I know little about.

Some background to why I am asking about this; there is a "budhhist master" that paints a world of ghosts that need appeasing. Many of the followers (there was about a thousand at a recent gathering) are sold on his credibility because of his psychic abilities.

He sees things by interpreting colours about the person and seeing ghosts ect. Distance is no object, he does a radio broadcast with the reading on the phone. I have first hand experience of his uncanny accuracy and doubt this to be just a show. I thought he might have been tuning into the mind of whom he was reading but he know things concerning themselves they do not know.

I don't go much for his teaching, it seems largely fear inspired but I am interested in knowing more about how he is getting his information. So I would appreciate any pointers you have on this.

[ edit - mentioned Davids (Haquan) user name ]

Hi Gary,

I think you could probably post it, but it is a big topic...

It's hard to know exactly where to start, but I definitely could recommend the CDs on Shinzen Young's "Science of Enlightenment" that are concerned with the "Realms of Power." Briefly, if the process of becoming enlightened is a "journey from surface to Source" (a metaphor which is admittedly limited) then what lies between the surface, mundane reality and Ultimate Reality might be called the "Intermediate Zone" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate_zone - the things in this realm therefore have a "quasi-reality."

This realm contains ghosts, demons, angels, elves, goblins, fairies, etc - *literally* anything one can imagine. In fact, in my view their reality is participatory, or dependent on the consciousness of humans or other sentient beings (I don't know - dolphins, or whatever). So in a way, by invoking (bringing them to the minds of himself and his followers) this "buddhist master" is empowering the ghosts and giving them life. They may very well serve as messengers and give him information.

On his part, he most likely relies on subtle cues from his intuition - subtle body sensations, or he may well see colors, which is a way his brain interprets intuitive information.

cont...

You probably also should understand the theory of "egregores" (a term poplularized by W.E. Butler) - the theory is that thoughtforms are created by collective belief, and energized by strong emotions (like fear). This is how most Gods and nature spirits develop. What's interesting is that when one gains a following one begins to develop egregoric qualities - one's image becomes a minor godform - rather like Obama, or any public figure with a cult of personality. A skilled guru can create a feedback loop with the followers beliefs to create effects, which further inspire the followers fervent passion, etc. This is probably how Adidam did some of what he talks about, and no doubt contributes to this Buddhist master's psychic efficacy. It can also be used benevolently to create insight in one's followers. Most great psychics use a combination of showmanship, external cues, and vague pronouncements - along with their intuition or real psychic sense - to capitalize on this effect.

I can teach you how to do this stuff if you're interested. Keep in mind that it's unreliable at best.

Hope that helps, and feel free to ask questions.
David

As David suggested I listened to Shinzen Young's "Science of Enlightenment" and the topic "Realms of Power". It was after this I came to the opinion this topic is not off topic for practice. As David mentioned this is a big topic but a primary motivator for me is that the negative energies of fear can so easily be packaged as a power for good amongst the masses.

Also I think Shinzen does a good job in assisting the yogi to keep in mind the final goal by distinguishing the psychic realm from the source.

At the moment I am listening to the rest Shinzen Young's "Science of Enlightenment" as context to this subject.

My research suggests anyone can develop siddhis and psychic abilities through sustained concentration practice. I don't think there is that much mystery to it really. I've had consciously induced episodes out-of-body projection, precognition, visions, spiritual healing etc. I spent my first ten years in the occult - western and Indian yogic - and western mystery tradition.

There is a long line of traditional thought that suggests one can go down the path of 'service to self' and development of personal power, as one evolutionary pathway, or one can go down the path of 'service to others' as dissolution of a sense of self and realization of source. Ultimately they both end up at the same point, since there is only the source, and the universe is a display of binary opposites or polarities giving rise to cause and effect. Service to self is a long and scenic path, whose purpose is the accumulation of power rather the apprehension of truth, and the exploration of the infinitude of potentiality of said binaries - particularly the former. Eventually, it resolves itself in a singularity - source.

[cont.] edited for typo

Each to their own proclivities in time; eventually, the display of power is seen for what it is, a mirage predicated on a confusion - there can be no greater power, creativity, potential, possibility, satisfaction or completion than the infinite itself, which is what we are already, so the whole endeavor is somewhat redundant and collapses upon itself.

The multiverses are born from our very being - the power of the sun, in the palm of our hand - and that isn't even it; what dark entity could rival that? It is said this path develops to the point of creator Gods; creating one's own multiverses, as seen fit - the ultimate satisfaction of control, worship and deification... and... the point of is still missed - we remain limited by our own self-definition, in failing to recognize our true nature and that which we seek as none other than this. Confusion and thus our own entrapment, ultimate powerlessness and absence of true freedom remains. But then, that is not the point, all is the display of Dharmakaya, and we each play our roles in time - like a mass of light on a TV screen, upon closer inspection, appearances can be deceiving - no separate images or entities dukeing it out are found to exist. All is perfect and as it should be.

How amazing and foolish we are!

In kind regards,

Adam. edited for clarification

"My research suggests anyone can develop siddhis and psychic abilities through sustained concentration practice. I don't think there is that much mystery to it really. I've had consciously induced episodes out-of-body projection, precognition, visions, spiritual healing etc. I spent my first tens in the occult - western and Indian yogic - and western mystery tradition."

Hi Adam,

There seems to be many claims but I think few do this well. And it is because so few do it well those that do amass many followers. Being captivated by the by this phenomena is a distraction to insight, but for many these things are already beyond a party trick, they are already captivated.

If as David mentions we give life to or create this phenomena, knowing this and other details is helpful.

Perhaps it is helpful to develop powers particulary if you seem to be a "natural". What do you think?

Regards
Gary

Yeah, most don't have the discipline; most of us are lazy, and fall to the easier route of our drives for instant gratification - managing drives through time where there is little immediate gratification takes significant focus of will and self-control - most have not learned this in our current societies, where we exist in cultures of instant gratification, purchase consciousness and difficulty managing the stress of delayed gratification. In the same way a great violinist or some other instrumentalist has spent thousands of hours developing their craft and talent to play in a famous orchestra, so too must the concentration adept spend time, energy and mastery in developing their psychic faculties - no easy feat if one wants power and mastery. These faculties are natural so not so much effort is required to develop them to lessor degrees though - but like any daily discipline, it is no casual, inconsistent affair either.

Some siddhis develop naturally without intention simply due to meditation practice - much of the Buddhist tradition suggests to ignore them when they naturally arise. For example out of body consciousness develops with mastery of the non-material jhanas, particularly if one practices lying down. As does precognition - though I'd make a distinction between clairvoyance and intuition. I think that the powers are tools and talents like any other - critical reasoning, creativity, art, music, driving etc. they can be used for all kinds of practical and personal ends. As long as they are kept in context and in 'view' as mentioned above, they are fine. They are part of the whole person, we needn't deny what is natural to us; that would be a confused notion of ego, not of view, as I see it.

So definitely, could be helpful to develop them and enrich our lives. Many will result naturally though.

[cont.] edited for spelling

Kenneth, with your mastery of the Jhanas, have you noticed any of the powers naturally developing?

In kind regards,

Adam. edited for typo

Hello guys,
One thing that got left out of the discussion above is that the Intermediate Realm, being in a sense the *relationship* between Surface Reality and Ultimate Reality (or Source) - the things there have a *quasi-reality*. They are not purely psychological, not "real" in the sense we usually mean it. This is an important point once you begin playing around there.

(For convenience, reprinted from an offlist conversation)This realm can be very distracting. The IOT has a motto they stole from Hassan il-Sabbah also known as "The Old Man of the Mountain," and the leader of the "Assassins" (the sect that was the arch-enemy of the Crusaders). The motto is "Nothing is True. Everything is Permitted." This motto has been misinterpreted in many ways, and I've gone round and round with Alan and Duncan, who refuse to accept the proper (in the sense of being the useful) interpretation. Nothing in the Intermediate Realms is True, though it may present itself as true. Nothing on the Surface can be said to be absolutely True. (In fact, the only thing that can be said to be True, is curiously, not a thing!) And the motto also applies to itself. In terms of the latter part, I believe it refers to two things - 1. Everyone is absolutely Free. 2. Historically in magick, a great deal of concern became directed at performing rituals and rites absolutely correctly, or by the book. Terrible consequences were imagined if one left the corner of a pentagram open, for instance. One had to pronounce the words completely correctly to obtain a result. In fact, all of that is blatantly false. Only the intent matters, everything else is to dramatize or broadcast that intent to the Universe. You make the rules. (It should be noted that nowhere in the motto does it say that one should do everything - just that one can. Neither does it say that one is free from the consequences of exercising their freedom.)

Continued from Post #9
While one may become lost or deluded, or otherwise seriously sidetracked in the Realms of Power, given the metaphor of enlightenment being a "journey from Surface to Source" (which admittedly has limitations as a metaphor), one still has to penetrate this territory to some degree to get to the Source. This is what Vajrayana is all about.

Shinzen Young mentions that he once lived with a fully enlightened Taiwanese wizard for a year, and that in that culture, it was considered acceptable to work with the Realms of Power after one became enlightened (it was this teacher's main interest in fact, though he was without a doubt, enlightened according to Young). In fact, he says, being enlightened gives one an invaluable perspective in dealing with these matters. I believe that is true.

Given that, magick is a tool that can give one an edge, or provide a power nose dive into self-destructive wish fulfillment. It is nothing other than a tool, rather like a gun. As such, it can be used for good, or evil. The techniques themselves are neither, though there may be an aesthetic component that seems to ally itself with the imagery of "Good" or "Evil" - nevertheless, it is the intent itself which determines the moral component of any particular operation rather than the particular vehicle or aesthetic which is used to convey the intent. Intent is not only the most important thing, it is in some ways the only thing. Right here you can see how the quest for spiritual insight has markedly different aims which involve, among other things, the transcendence of intent. Practical magick, then, and possibly all magick, always belongs to the relative realm Being a tool, the use of magick is goal oriented and consequence driven. What seems dangerous to me, is the idea that it is something other, or higher, than any other tool or skill set.
Bodhi people still use tools, and create reality.

"... it is the intent itself which determines the moral component of any particular operation rather than the particular vehicle or aesthetic which is used to convey the intent. Intent is not only the most important thing, it is in some ways the only thing."

Like anything else....

"
"... it is the intent itself which determines the moral component of any particular operation rather than the particular vehicle or aesthetic which is used to convey the intent. Intent is not only the most important thing, it is in some ways the only thing."

Like anything else....

"


It wasn't my intent to hit my toe on the heater the other day, but I did!
If I understand correctly the surface operates on cause and effect and "quasi reality" operates on intent. Of course the "quasi reality" and the surface intermingle.

When in the woods in the great NW I felt I was visited by a yaksha, so this is a case where either it is my own mental formations, or there was in fact an entity which was provoked in some way, or at least curious. Either way the treatment was the same, I felt I had to give the utmost respect and due diligence to it, mindlessly show the way, preach the Dharma, and then go on with my practice. I don't see the need for a major detour into this region just because one becomes aware of it - that is a kind of self-centered reaction. If one practices for the sake of all sentient beings, then beings from other realms are just some out of many.
p e a c e
h a n s e n

I got more into "supernatural gifts" (powers) when I was into charismatic Christianity. If you spend a lot of time just wanting powers, then ways to get them will present themselves. There are plenty of examples in the NIkaya texts, these usually don't get quoted, as there is a kind of taboo operating around these issues.

The only one I am working with right now is to remember my dreams (not interpret) - and to practice meditation in my dream scenarios. Connecting the dream world to this one is one of those gaps you can work. There is a tie-in to OOB, so yes, flying to the Hubble Deep Field is something I would like to do, just like the android had done in Blade Runner. But developing OOB is strictly a back-burner issue, many more are more pressing and relevant.
p e a c e
h a n s e n

I feel that there are a number of yogis with large followings are basically benefitting from their powers more than they do from an kind of practical wisdom which if they had any they could impart to their students. Instead, there is just a parlor show, or these large mushroom-factor intoxicated thousands, or hundreds of thousands, like the lotus-eaters in the old Greek epic. That would be the way to get your teaching established I guess, use mass hypnotism and access to bliss - states to keep the mutitudes stoned on. There are so many who don't want to take any responsibility for themselves that the "Perfect Master" gimmick will be around for a long time. It is really a false teaching, however.
p e a c e
h a n s e n

"
It wasn't my intent to hit my toe on the heater the other day, but I did!
If I understand correctly the surface operates on cause and effect and "quasi reality" operates on intent. Of course the "quasi reality" and the surface intermingle.

"

I wouldn't say that the quasi or fractal reality transcends the law of cause and effect, I'd say that intent is a causative agent - possibly the primary causative agent.

There seem to be two main classes of activity - special awarenesses, and actually acting upon reality in some way (both are associated with non-dual absorption states). The special awarenesses are usually stuff taking place in the background anyway - quite similar to "congruence signals in NLP" - once one becomes aware of subtle impressions and learns to differentiate them from projections and other classic defense mechanisms, one's intuition turns out to be quite reliable.

These kinds of perceptions are components among other things of "seeing things as they are."

I think the key is to neither put these phenomenon on a pedestal or completely denigrate them. They are what they are, and probably (I can't believe I'm actually saying this) they shouldn't be your main focus if you haven't "gotten it done."

"I think the key is to neither put these phenomenon on a pedestal or completely denigrate them. They are what they are, and probably (I can't believe I'm actually saying this) they shouldn't be your main focus if you haven't "gotten it done."
"

Maybe you can choose the degree of tangent here, but for me I am sort of "selfish" and like the idea of "gettin it done". For some perhaps the tangent is something of a motivation, but it maybe easy to be in a position where one is getting no closer to the source.

"I wouldn't say that the quasi or fractal reality transcends the law of cause and effect, I'd say that intent is a causative agent - possibly the primary causative agent.
"

Hi David,

Do not the physical laws appear to operate in spite of intent. Have I missed what you are saying here?
To apply what you have said here, would you say one can only be the recipent of a causitive effect only if one believes one can be? Is effectiveness of magick about both the initiator and the recipent?

"Kenneth, with your mastery of the Jhanas, have you noticed any of the powers naturally developing?" -Adam

Yes, that's been my experience. Overall, though, I find my life with my wife, career, friends, dharma community, and family, more interesting, so I don't actively cultivate powers. Some things, like out of body experiences, have become easy and routine. Once the novelty wears off, like anything else, these experiences just take their place as part of a life. I haven't found any practical application for psychic powers. As far as I know, they are just another interesting phenomenon of mind, not unlike watching television.

I think Adam West (somewhere) echoed one of my core beliefs, which could be wiped out as easily as anything else, that what looks to us to be a single universe actually has multiple divergent directions available at any given moment. Facility in this is what R. Anton Wilson calls "possibility travel" and can be interpreted as meaning that possibilities are mutable qualities, not factual or actual givens. You could easily ask yourself to what extent we are choosing to navigate into Buddha-fields and hence, we're getting there, for example. I think the idea that everything is predetermined as a material cause and effect is naive as well as presumptuous. This is why I persist in an "inquiry" methodology as much as a "raw sensation one", meaning: we're not just victims. But I am very adverse to moving things around and changing them. Karma is a very absolute law, and the best approach is to be unattached to results. But still you have to love certain results. But that is just me.
p e a c e
h a n s e n

Yeah, I suspect you're right too, to some degree. I subscribe to a multi-verse thesis which entails all possible variations of reality that succeed and fail according to natural law in an infinite variety of parallel realities as a likely probability. Further, I propose that any person on this planet past or present that believes they have realized the pinnacle of natural evolution and ultimate realization is deeply presumptuous, amongst other things.

You might not be too surprised to find that I find those who think they 'know' rather confused and somewhat irritating - the hubris of a juvenile mind, with an arrogance fueled by ignorance itself. Rather, to touch reality is to be overwhelmed by its infinity, majesty, completeness, perfection, possibility, simpleness and power - such that this small mind is but a breeze in infinity. In the face of this, there is an unknowing and the complete absurdity that we have touched anything but the surface.

In kind regards,

Adam. edited for spelling

"Hi David,

Do not the physical laws appear to operate in spite of intent. Have I missed what you are saying here?
To apply what you have said here, would you say one can only be the recipent of a causitive effect only if one believes one can be? Is effectiveness of magick about both the initiator and the recipent?

"

I probably should have qualified what I was saying by specifying that in "the intermediate zone," intent is causal.

Physical laws do (at least superficially) seem to operate independently of intent. (Nevertheless, anything we *do* cannot be said to be independent of intent). A magic spell more or less communicates one's intent to the universe. That has a consequence. It is not always the consequence one expects or desires, nor does it always happen according to our preferred timeline. Here in the relatively more material world, communicating intent also has real, measurable effects.

There's actually quite a bit of overlap between the Sambokaya and Nirmanakaya (or Astral and Material if you prefer) - more all the time in fact. Consider the internet - virtual worlds exist there. Does communicated intent there have effects? Can game play in World of Warcraft have effects in the "real world"? The fact is that it does, and in many varying ways. One economist found that it had a real world economy equivalent to a small European city, with an exchange rate and all. Now could you perform specific actions in WoW to create specific effects in your own life? That's the art of magick. (Yes, yes you can - theoretically anyway.)

In contrast to Kenneth, I have found certain things useful - there's the ability to heal, communicate more effectively, anticipate unexpected events, have greater influence on others, etc. Intuition comes in quite handy sometimes. Like him, though, I'm not much for mucking about on the astral plane, or doing stuff for it's own sake.

As a side note, I also think cause and effect is a somewhat linear model. Ultimately, causes can't be separated from their effects, but it does turn out to be a useful way of thinking about some things. Another way of looking at what's happening with magick is that one is creating karma, or perceiving it.

Oh Gary, forgot to answer one question - no, the belief of the recipient is not necessary, but it helps.

I'm not entirely sure what Adam's comments are directed at in terms of who is claiming to "know."

One small point: Magicians would tend to skip over comments like "to touch reality is to be overwhelmed by its infinity, majesty, completeness, perfection, possibility, simpleness and power - such that this small mind is but a breeze in infinity." While all true, it's just not relevant to the Art. Magick is a technical specialty, rather like engineering. Engineering, at this point in it's history, doesn't have much use for Quantum Mechanics (also true, but irrelevant in that context). Just FYI.

Yep, R.A. Wilson has a good head on his shoulders.
David

"In contrast to Kenneth, I have found certain things useful - there's the ability to heal, communicate more effectively, anticipate unexpected events, have greater influence on others, etc. Intuition comes in quite handy sometimes. Like him, though, I'm not much for mucking about on the astral plane, or doing stuff for it's own sake."

I like the way you put this, David. Reflecting further on my own attitude toward psychic powers, I would say that I view them in much the same way that I view rattlesnakes. I think rattlesnakes are beautiful and fascinating. Occasionally, I encounter one in the wild. When I do, I don't engage it. I just watch for awhile, then go about my business. I have a healthy respect for rattlesnakes, and I recognize their destructive potential along with their beauty; it's a package. Some people like to pick up snakes, keep them as pets, and even milk them for their venom and use the venom to help others. Such people often get bitten, of course, but I suppose they would say that they have accepted the risk in advance. The worst-case scenario is when your snake gets loose and bites someone else. It's for this reason that I don't "muck about" on either the reptile plane or the astral.

I also like your discussion of consequences, because this is the real issue with actively engaging psychic powers. There are consequences for our actions on the astral plane and we can't reliably predict what they will be. We have enough trouble predicting consequences on the material plane.

Kenneth