Emptiness of phenomena

In the end, I think you just end up exchanging one set of perceptions for another. If you think about it, sipping a cup of tea coupled with extreme inner bliss sensations would be a far more addictive experience than any siddhi. But then, the orientation is still out there, on all the objects we're supposed to be letting go of.

To see how these skills can be dangerous or useful in the context of the Buddhist path, it might be interesting to back to the earliest Buddhist sources (Samannaphalasutta of the Dighanikaya and Mahasakuludayisutta of the Majjhimanikaya) where this ability is called 'mannomaya iddhi ñana', namely the knowledge of the mind-made body.

The Vishudhimagga explains that if a meditator wishes to create a mind-made body, he should emerge from the fourth jhana, advert to his own body and resolve that the body is hollow. From a practical point of view, this is in fact similar to what I described earlier.

"What I believe these phenomena tell us is just how powerful our minds reallly are. So I try to keep the admonition in mind that power can corrupt -- and hey, I have plenty of issues to deal with already

"

I really like what you said here Chris.
Obviously it all sounds very cool and I'd love to see different planes of existence, but what worries me is that such powers can become causes for suffering for me and others in various ways (what Daniel calls siddhi-hangover and becoming weird).. I guess a strong trust, maturity and self control (funny are vital here.

"
I'm with Ron. These experiences are fascinating but I think it's best given the nature of human nature that we progress along the path first, then experiment with these other phenomena if they still interest us. What I believe these phenomena tell us is just how powerful our minds reallly are. So I try to keep the admonition in mind that power can corrupt -- and hey, I have plenty of issues to deal with already

"

Hey Cmarti,

I can totally respect this approach, as it's the one I've (more or less) followed. That said, I've realized that after enlightenment there's just this human life, and so there's absolutely nothing wrong with exploring and enjoying psychic powers, concentration, or for that matter earthly pleasures. Obviously, any of these things can distract us from the path, but so can being too obsessed with the path. And if what we're left with is what we are, why not have fun eh?

-Vince

"... I've realized that after enlightenment ..."

Hello, Vince. I quoted what I believe is the key to this issue from your comment. Let me try to better articulate my position. I see folks who are struggling a bit with their practice quickly want to explore the more mystical areas of the path (and yes, I think it's all part of the path). So I expressed my opinion that it is better to address the immediate concerns first, then play. I'm not against play. When I was struggling it was a real struggle. The process seemed to reach out and have its way on a regular basis, so the last thing I wanted was to get into mystical stuff. I'm no doubt personalizing this and others are no doubt less prone to the same concerns. And of course, none of this is up to me except maybe in my own practice.

Anyway, that's it. Although I'm sure folks will think I'm a stick-in-the-mud, "there will be no fun here" kinda person.

- Chris

Asked what he brought back from China, Japanese monks were expecting to see fancy robes, transmission certificates or copies of unpublished Zen records. But Dogen's answer was just: 'a soft and flexible mind'.

It seems that, after years of dedicated practice, Vince Horn is also coming back with a soft and flexible mind. A flexible mind can launch us in the most extraordinary heavenly realms, but we are always back to ordinary life'¦ to appreciate a good cup of Da Hong Pao Oolong tea.

No problem Chris, everyone is free to express himself and should not be worried about sounding "stuck-in-the-mud". And everyone is free to set his own priorities, especially people like us who've got demanding jobs, kids and all that.

The fact that astral realms are not on your present agenda is understandable, considering that it doesn't have more value than good TV series, unless it is used for a specific purpose (like six yogas of Naropa, lucid dreaming or dream yoga in relation with dzogchen practice, or even perfection of the enjoyment body after enlightenment).

As far as I am concerned, I've been trained in the Soto Zen school where mentioned those things is likely to be welcomed with remarks such as "ok, but what about cleaning the floor now". Yet, I was initially talking about emptiness of phenomena which is as important as emptiness of self in the Mahayana. My kitchen, the floor, TV series, astral realms are nothing but empty phenomena. Yet that's our reality here and now, as much as my daily hour of hardcore zazen.

" I see folks who are struggling a bit with their practice quickly want to explore the more mystical areas of the path (and yes, I think it's all part of the path). "

Are you talking about me???

Hehe!

Nicolai:

Alex: no problem at all. It's a good conversation to have, I think, especially inside ourselves.

"Thanks Kenneth,

I have been very interested in dream practices. Got myself a book on Zhine Tibetan Bon practices. of dream yoga. I've been trying to take my practice to dreamland lately. I would love to hear anything AugustLEo has to say on these types of practices. We spend a third of our lives sleeping so why not utilise it? "

There are some interesting dream yoga/lucid-dreaming tips in B. Alan Wallace's book "The Attention Revolution." For example, he suggests stopping yourself several times a day to ask the question, "Wait. Is this a dream?" You then do something like look at some printed text, look away for a few seconds and then look back at the text to see if it has changed. By making this a continual habit in daily life, eventually you will start to do it in your dream life. When the text or whatever the reference point is actually changes upon second glance, this becomes your cue to wake up within the dream. He also gives instructions on making certain resolutions, just as you put your head on the pillow, to lucid dream. He has worked a lot with Stephen LaBerge, who I take it is the preeminent lucid dream expert.

@Chris - RE: Wilis Tower
Last time I was in Chicago (3 years ago) it was still called the Sears Tower.
Everything is impermenent... even the name of famous buildings...
I'll soon be in NYC and hope that the Chrysler Building has not become the Fiat Tower

Alex, yeah, I was kidding around about the name of the Sears Tower. No one here calls it the "Wilis" Tower anyway.

Further, if you want a more serious reply to your question on OE, I would say that you and I will hold hands and jump off that thing, knowing there is no landing and that the freefall is..... free!

Best!

Good answer! Cheers!

I'm loving this discussion.

The range of possible experiences beyond the mundane is staggeringly large. In fact, the mundane realm in which our fleshy bodies dwell represents only the tiniest fraction of the totality of existence. There is far more to be had "above" (for that's what it feels like) our realm than within it.

And that wonderful possibility is precisely the problem. Our thirst for the extraordinary can distract us from the essential.

In the moments after my Awakening, when I tried to formulate its meaning in my own words (my version of the traditional Enlightenment poem) this is what I came up with: "I am not implicated in my own experience."

Experience is not essential, neither in its quantity nor its quality. Nor is experience binding, and for the very same reason. So experiences can come and go without causing any harm. You can have astral sex (which is amazing), or drink excellent tea (which is warmly satisfying), or be dismembered by demons (which is really unpleasant) yet nothing will change but your mind.

My view of experience is like Chuang Tzu's view of knowledge. He wrote:
"Knowledge is unlimited. Life is limited. Why pursue what is unlimited with what is limited?"

Body is weak and impermanent, mind is powerful, flexible and infinite.

"You can have astral sex (which is amazing), be dismembered by demons (which is really unpleasant) yet nothing will change but your mind.

"

Tips?

Haha, sorry folks, just joking.

My craving level for all these experiences took a nose dive when I got path. That doesn't mean I don't have the desire to experience "stuff". I do. But I don't seem to crave it at all. I may have the thought occur to me to try "faking it to make it" during a meditation session but I am not going out of my way to develop any of these abilities. I wish I had that drive that i once had. I think getting it done is the priority and will let any ability develop naturally. Anyway...ahem.....

**imagines waving imagined hands above head**

@Gozen: nice to see you joining this discussion.

As I see it, the old debate on psychic powers is pointless since no one will sincerely claims that astral projection leads to enlightenment, at least not on this forum I hope. But the title of the thread is 'Emptiness of Phenomena'. How is that related?

"I am not implicated in my own experience" means that experiences like my physical body, my kitchen and my cup of coffee are not what I am. These are experiences, but these experiences are not me. They are taking place within awareness. They are taking place within '˜me'.

If this statement is correct, this means also that, while reading these lines, we are already out of body. We are having an out-of-body experience right now! The main difference between the waking state and an astral projection is that during an astral projection the illusory nature of the experience is more obvious.

In other words, it is not my kitchen that contains my body that contains a spark of consciousness shining behind my eyes. On the contrary, our direct experience reveals that awareness is prior to experience and contains the sensations, perceptions and thoughts that I call my mind, my body and my kitchen.

"
@Gozen: nice to see you joining this discussion.

As I see it, the old debate on psychic powers is pointless since no one will sincerely claims that astral projection leads to enlightenment, at least not on this forum I hope. But the title of the thread is 'Emptiness of Phenomena'. How is that related?

"I am not implicated in my own experience" means that experiences like my physical body, my kitchen and my cup of coffee are not what I am. These are experiences, but these experiences are not me. They are taking place within awareness. They are taking place within '˜me'.

If this statement is correct, this means also that, while reading these lines, we are already out of body. We are having an out-of-body experience right now! The main difference between the waking state and an astral projection is that during an astral projection the illusory nature of the experience is more obvious.

In other words, it is not my kitchen that contains my body that contains a spark of consciousness shining behind my eyes. On the contrary, our direct experience reveals that awareness is prior to experience and contains the sensations, perceptions and thoughts that I call my mind, my body and my kitchen.
"

Yes, Alex, just so.

Awareness is not contained in experience; experience is contained in Awareness. The content of experience could be drained from that container, and the container would be unaffected.

Have any of you ever went for a visit in the hell realms and spoke to some beings there?
I'd love to hear some stories, please!

Every day. It's called "my office."

Lol - I'm still laughing about your joke, Chris!

Not hell realms as such. Sorry Yadib. But it is possible. You can check Kenneth Grant's "The Nightside of Eden" or even William Blake for fairly good descriptions of these dark realms. I've met a few daemons however, but assuming the god-form of Horus has so far been sufficient to care them away.

Yeah Chris, you gave us a good laugh

Alex: How did you meet these daemons?

I was asking because following Kenneth's link into the "32 realms of existence" list on accesstoinsight got me into Ajahn Lee describing different realms including hell realms.

"Next is manomayiddhi, power in the area of the mind. The mind acquires power. What kind of power? You can go wherever you want. If you want to go sightseeing in hell, you can. If you want to get away from human beings, you can go sightseeing in hell. It's nice and relaxing. You can play with the denizens of hell, fool around with the denizens of hell.
Or, if you want, you can travel in the world of the hungry shades. The world of the hungry shades is even more fun. Hungry shades come in all different shapes and sizes '” really entertaining, the hungry shades. Some of them have heads as big as large water jars, but their mouths are just like the eye of a needle: that's all, no bigger than the eye of a needle! Some of them have legs six yards long, but hands only half a foot. They're amazing to watch, just like a cartoon. Some of them have lower lips with no upper lips, some of them are missing their lips altogether, with their teeth exposed all the time. There are all kinds of hungry shades. Some of them have big, bulging eyes, the size of coconuts, others have fingernails as long as palm leaves. You really ought to see them. Some of them are so fat they can't move, others so thin that they're nothing but bones. And sometimes the different groups get into battles, biting each other, hitting each other. That's the hungry shades for you. Really entertaining."
www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/knowledge.htm

Very interesting. Thanks a lot. I've had lucid dreams with Mahasiddhas, sexy dakinis and all that, but here it was in the Western mystery tradition.
I haven't talked much about it on this forum, but I actually went through the A.'.A.'. curriculum under the guidance of Alan Chapman. One of the tasks was to gain knowledge and conversation with what is called the Holy Guardian Angel in the Western esoteric tradition. Alan talked about it on BuddhistGeeks last year. When contact is made, one may encounter dark forces that are basically thought-forms embodying our inner daemons (repressed traumas and frustrations I guess). The trick is to bind them to the will of the Holy Guardian Angel.

My encounters with Christ, mighty angels, gods, goddesses and a mysterious brotherhood of hooded Western bodhisattvas in white robes took place through the Enochian magical system of John Dee. Dr Dee was the astrologer and counselor of Elisabeth I (Shakespeare's inspiration for the magician Prospero in '˜the Tempest'). The system is very interesting and, amongst other things, allows one to scry 30 astral planes called the 30 Aethyrs.

Now may sound crazy '“especially on a Buddhist forum-, but these visions tend to match the Vipassana 4 paths model, with specific events confirming each major stage through alchemical and religious symbols. They also trigger jhanic absorptions, kundalini experiences and non-dual states. From my limited experience with the Western mystery tradition, it is pretty much like Vajrayana.

I have more than a 100 pages of notes about all that and I am trying to write a book describing the whole process.

"Now may sound crazy '“especially on a Buddhist forum-, but these visions tend to match the Vipassana 4 paths model, with specific events confirming each major stage through alchemical and religious symbols. They also trigger jhanic absorptions, kundalini experiences and non-dual states. From my limited experience with the Western mystery tradition, it is pretty much like Vajrayana.

I have more than a 100 pages of notes about all that and I am trying to write a book describing the whole process.
"

I would be very interested to read that book (heck, even your notes). I've actually been doing a bit of poking around magick sites (e.g. Alan Chapman, Ona Kiser) as well as researching Tibetan Vajrayana and have also noticed that there *seem* to be big parallels - even to non-initiates. Not that I'm thinking about taking up such practices right now - "Stream entry or bust!" - but I'm keeping them in mind for later.

EDIT: Fixed your last name Ona! Sorry!

I don't think Alex checks in on the forum these days. But the "Teach Yourself" material on my blog (including the enochian scrying stuff) was repurposed from a book I was writing with him about magick as a support practice towards awakening, as he mentions in part in the bit you quoted (the book got sidetracked due to other concerns, so I recycled the parts we had finished). -Ona