Stages, Part the Third

Congratulations on achieving another year toward 'wisdom'-- Chris. As a geezer myself, I can say that there are unadvertised pleasures and advantages.

An appreciation of subtlety is surely one of them. I think that the wonderful paradoxical aphorisms and stories of Zen are apropos of this stage; and the one that pops into mind right now is: "Not knowing is most intimate."

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Yes, Virginia, there is awakening but it's not what you think. Uncertainty! No real need to find the comfort of explaining the unexplainable...



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Master Sekiso said, "You are at the top of the 100 foot high pole. How will you make a step further?" Another Zen Master of Ancient Times said, "One who sits on top of the 100 foot pole has not quite attained true enlightenment. Make another step forward from the top of the pole and throw one's own body into the 100,000 universes."

Yes. How could there be certainty? Or comfort? Just fall and fall and fall -- there's nothing to catch you cause there's no end to the falling.

Happy birthday Chris!

Is seems that I am not the only one who discovered that awakening goes hand in hand with the destruction of all our maps and models. As Adyashanti put it, it is "the complete eradication of everything we imagined to be true".

Wow I was so happy to read this discussion when I logged on. First of Happy Birthday my friend. Secondly, I definatly feel like I can relate to most of the post. Specifically Jacksons analogy of a software... I have been pondering that recently, the idea of manipulation where does that intersect with intention? I think I am in a similar situation... I am not sure my swings are quit as radical but I do notice shifts between extreme interest in spirituality and spiritual apathy. I imagine that awakening is not the end we imagine it to be, but rather the beginning of a new chapter...

Spirituality and all its trappings is the most important and most wonderful thing in the world to me AND it's the silliest, most ridiculous and biggest waste of time I could ever imagine.
It's true. Both of those things. At the very same time. Simultaneous.

" Yet we kind of sort of act like we know with some certitude what's going on in our practice a lot of the time. I suspect we force-fit symptoms into the models in our heads. I also think we're not always aware enough of what we're doing when we do that"

Thanks for this Chris, I am guilty to the nth degree of this, and its good to know this is a habit that carries along with us, further and further up the path.

And to echo everyone else here (though how did they know?) Happy Birthday!

"And to echo everyone else here (though how did they know?) Happy Birthday!" ~Ian

Oh, you didn't know about the master list of KFDh members' brithdays? Just kidding.

I'm pretty sure it was leaked via Facebook.

"I'm pretty sure it was leaked via Facebook."

Aha! : )

This is a riff on Alex's thread that I didn't want to post there so as to interrupt the ongoing conversation:

I've always thought the jhanas to be a nice but not necessary part of the path to awakening. I guess "necessary to what?" might be a good question to ask .My experience has been that getting deep, really deep, reveals certain things that aren't otherwise accessible -- but those things need to be brought into the relative world of family and career, daily existence, in order to be of use there. It really pushes my practice to see all the deepest assumptions that I carry and once I see those assumptions I can see how they are used in the world by the mind, how they shape perception and experience, how powerful they are in generating "me" and other now-seen-as-not-absolute concepts (time, space, etc.). Once seen those assumptions can be observed and adjusted for and that certainly contributes to awakening and choice. Yes, not identified with the body and mind.

I'm rambling. Thinking "out loud" in type.

But am I missing something? What is it?

"
This is a riff on Alex's thread that I didn't want to post there so as to interrupt the ongoing conversation:

I've always thought the jhanas to be a nice but not necessary part of the path to awakening. I guess "necessary to what?" might be a good question to ask .My experience has been that getting deep, really deep, reveals certain things that aren't otherwise accessible -- but those things need to be brought into the relative world of family and career, daily existence, in order to be of use there. It really pushes my practice to see all the deepest assumptions that I carry and once I see those assumptions I can see how they are used in the world by the mind, how they shape perception and experience, how powerful they are in generating "me" and other now-seen-as-not-absolute concepts (time, space, etc.). Once seen those assumptions can be observed and adjusted for and that certainly contributes to awakening and choice. Yes, not identified with the body and mind.

I'm rambling. Thinking "out loud" in type.

But am I missing something? What is it?

"

To me, my "obsession" with jhanas has primarily been as milestone markers. They seemed to be somewhat clearly described, evidently reproducible, and occurred way before stream entry. Therefore, as a budd(h)ing practitioner, the jhanas (and I am talking rupa here) offered little check marks to say "yup", you are on track.

The higher jhanas seem like nice gravy to me at this stage, not important, and yet reinforce that reproducible element that gives me some comfort in knowing this is a totally natural and physical process we are going through.

JMHO.

Hey, Chris-- It's not entirely clear to me what the question is: 'are you missing something' by not being all that interested in jhanas / the experiential-subjective aspects of the awakening process--is that the question?

I think Tom is right that they are indicators of skill-development, and that as such, for at least some practitioners, they fade into the background in favor of the practice-- in life-- of those skills. What is in the foreground is the -- clearly necessary in the moment-- deployment of those skills. 'Keeping your head, when all about you, are losing theirs,' like Kipling said. At times of peak demand for 'equanimity, sympathetic joy, etc.' the emphasis is gonna be on DOING IT, not on reflecting on, or noticing the subjective features of, these changes. Time for that when things quiet down!

Or maybe I misunderstand the question?

"What is in the foreground is the -- clearly necessary in the moment-- deployment of those skills. 'Keeping your head, when all about you, are losing theirs,' like Kipling said. At times of peak demand for 'equanimity, sympathetic joy, etc.' the emphasis is gonna be on DOING IT, not on reflecting on, or noticing the subjective features of, these changes. Time for that when things quiet down!"


I don't know whether this is what Chris had in mind, but....damn. This is spot-on, Roomy. IMHO.

I think the jhanas are just one set of the myriad skillful means available to those on the path. Sometimes they help, other times they hard. There are wise and unwise ways to use them.

One of the important insights gained through jhana practice - at least in my experience - is that consciousness, states of mind, and identification are inherently malleable. This helped me to wake up out of the idea that any mode of being is the "real" or "right" one. The baseline state we find ourselves in is one we've settled into due to force of habit, and that's all. This can start to become very clear through jhana practice.

Are they necessary? I really don't know. I would assume not, as there are so many other ways to realize the truth.

It's funny-- last night I started a self-assigned project of assembling written representations of nonduality, from the Heart Sutra, to Rumi, to various posters on this forum. It just struck me that this inquiry-- about life and practice-- is another facet where nonduality can be seen.

I wrote to a friend of mine recently about having witnessed one of my teachers 'BEING the teaching '/ answer to a student's question; and I'm remembering watching another teacher weave the 'mudras of emptiness and form' in the air at an empowerment. It is very beautiful to watch, and has always made the seamlessness of the two viscerally real, in a way that words barely touch.

What I'm trying to say is that the realworld challenges in our lives pull us-- ready or not-- out of the self-enclosure of meditative accomplishment into the radiant possibility of expressing wisdom as compassion. The mudra looks like two parallel infinity signs being traced in the air, trading places for leader and follower... wisdom leading compassion; compassion leading wisdom...

life guiding practice; practice guiding life

"
This is a riff on Alex's thread that I didn't want to post there so as to interrupt the ongoing conversation:

I've always thought the jhanas to be a nice but not necessary part of the path to awakening. I guess "necessary to what?" might be a good question to ask .My experience has been that getting deep, really deep, reveals certain things that aren't otherwise accessible -- but those things need to be brought into the relative world of family and career, daily existence, in order to be of use there. It really pushes my practice to see all the deepest assumptions that I carry and once I see those assumptions I can see how they are used in the world by the mind, how they shape perception and experience, how powerful they are in generating "me" and other now-seen-as-not-absolute concepts (time, space, etc.). Once seen those assumptions can be observed and adjusted for and that certainly contributes to awakening and choice. Yes, not identified with the body and mind.
"


That's also how I see it. Basically, I am not trying to see something new but only to uproot the remaining habits that prevent me from fully embodying the truth that I have seen. As we say in the Zen tradition, sudden enlightenment is followed by gradual practice. The sun rises suddenly, but, like snow, the remaining habits of identification take time to melt away.

My interest these days is to understand what exactly is the 'sense of existence' (how does it arise, how it relates to consciousness, emptiness and suchness, how is gets identified with body and mind, etc.)

A wise senior dharma-friend taught me to approach Buddhism like a dharma-investigator. I guess I have fallen into this particular category of mad-scientists. Checking my tool-box, I found that emerging from a hard and solid jhana (with the nimitta and all that) is priceless to get to the root of the matter in a quick and efficient way.

I really was just rambling and had no specific question when I posted yesterday.... and I should do that more often because it elicited some great replies from you all. Thank you, each and every one.

I'm still fumbling my way through the relationship between models and reality ( for wont of a better term). I'm leaning toward the model (!) that says models confound as much as they inform but that applies more to the situation I find myself in right now. That was not true most of the time in the past, and I can see it's not true for most folks. I guess I just don't want to predispose myself toward a particular interpretation right, or set of interpretations, as it seems that may close off more than it illuminates. Yeah, I know, This sounds sort of weird to me, too. Maybe in weirdness there is some grain of truth. Or just more weirdness. Or things really are like that. I don't know.

I don't know.

'Weird' is a wonderful, evocative old English word with connotations of fate, destiny, magic, the 'uncanny' [that which cannot be known]-- and, I just discovered in the dictionary, a relationship through its root to 'worth / worthiness'.

The older I get, the more it makes perfect sense that a 3-year old can take an hour to go halfway down the block-- there's just so much stopping, looking, listening, touching, and wondering-about to do.

I have a late-teenage daughter who suffers from depression. She also self-medicates. She's had a rough go of 2010 and so has the rest of our family. But there's always hope and one thing I'm happy to be discovering are the uncanny parallels between meditation practice and the treatment we're getting for my daughter and the family. This is not easy to talk about openly but I'm going to do it because there are important things we as human beings need to keep in mind when we run across people like my daughter, or people with anxiety disorders, or addicts, or what-have-you, and when we practice. The intersection of these things has blown me away, frankly.

My initial reaction was to grab control. To get in there and fix it. I am a fixer. That is my M.O., so that is my instinct. Well, guess what? It's not going to get better that way. In fact, things will stay the same or get worse. I can't fix another human being no matter how much I may want to and no matter how accurate I may be (or think I am) in knowing what their issues are. So as in my practice, the process of treating my daughter and of involving the entire family has been one of learning how to just let things go. To be with. For the bulk of this year my practice, my daughter's treatment and my learning about the latter have run in parallel. In both cases I've learned that the objectivity gained from both practice and just stepping away and letting other people be themselves and find their own way is enormously important and helpful. Every day that passes, with every advance, setback, and everything in between, teaches me the value of practice and being able to apply it when it really freaking matters. Rubber, meet road.

So..... thank you to Kenneth for being a very effective coach and teacher, and thank you to this practice for giving me the space to be wiling to listen and learn. None of this has been easy, but damn, it sure is worth the effort.

Another really important thing practice brings is the sense of authenticity. It's sort of like a very powerful bullsh*t detector. The folks who treat adolescents ought to all be enshrined. It's got to be the most difficult thing to do. Landing a man on the moon is easier from my perspective. But as great as they are, they are forced to follow formulas. Getting paid by insurance companies and being able to treat lots of these kids pretty much dictates a "one size fits all" treatment regimen.

Of course, that's not as good as fully customized care. So it takes patience, perseverance and detachment to talk to completely overworked and underpaid caregivers in order to get more specific advice, treatment and an honest prognosis. I hate the fact that this is the way it is but... this is the way it is. But once again, up pops the patience and ability to just be with from the practice we all do here and all of a sudden they can see the differences and the nuance. Why? Because someone understands their situation and the constraints they're forced to work under. Someone is listening and communicating, not demanding.

And then there's family. Looking at a case history is a good and a bad thing. There is a period during initial treatment that is about as Dark NIght-ish as it could be. You start to see all the warts. You see what you did, or didn't do, what you saw, or didn't see. Being able to plumb those depths is important, though. If people are to recover, to gain self-respect, to lead normal happy lives, they need to face themselves and it's really important as I see it to be able to go right down that rabbit hole with them. As any Dark Night yogi knows, you gotta do what you gotta do. Being able to just be with someone who's going through that, and in some way everyone in the family will need to, is something that comes with this practice.

More later....

Kenneth sent a really nice PM either last night or this morning about this place and its effectiveness. I've been thinking a lot about this lately. I came into the practice thinking it was really, really, really hard and getting anywhere would take a long, long, long of time - like, decades. I think that is typically the case. But there are things going on here, with us, that give pause. Huge pause. I can enumerate them, at least my version:

1. Kenneth's instruction. Clear, effective, down to earth, common sense, practical. This is not normally the case.
2. Cross-pollination within this online community. We describe and explain very personal experiences, provide grounding, case studies, support, information, encouragement, and more information. This is not normally the case.
3. Self-selection. The people drawn here seem to come after hearing Kenneth's Buddhist Geeks interviews, or maybe are invited by one of us, or just happen upon this place. But if they stay, create a practice journal, they seem to inevitable talk to Kenneth and then zoom! Off they go. That is not normally the case.

This place is forcing the issue in regard what it really takes, and in how much time, to make progress. All bets seem to be off, and maybe what we're doing here is proving how handicapping the typical Buddhist experience in America really is. I don't know how to weight the three factors I listed above, frankly. Still....

Go us!

"...the typical Buddhist experience in America ...

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And Canada. And Chile. And the UK.

But aside from that minor correction, I totally, utterly agree with 1, 2, and 3. I read an article last night that was lamenting the lack of faith in Western Buddhism, suggesting that there needs to be some to begin and continue practice, taking on faith that the practice works and eventually leads to awakening. In light of this place, that article misses the mark entirely given that the community here provides the necessary reinforcement that the practice actually works. The only faith required is that *all* the posters are not lying, which is not a huge leap of faith at all.

Go us, indeed!

I'm curious about something -- why do such a high percentage of folks who believe they've attained something in the dharma or along the path turn to teaching the dharma? Just to put this out there, If that's how you are inclined so be it but please examine your motivation for the sake of your future students. I don't think teaching dharma at any level is easy. It's nuanced and anything that involves mind is bound to be very complicated and frought with the same sort of dangers that being a therapist carries. This will probably be an unpopular comment but I'm dead serious -- make sure you are aware of why you want to teach and spend some serious time reflecting on that before you start.

Signed,

The KFDh Curmudgeon

Probably the intention has to do with at least some of the following:
1. An honest desire to help others, out of an actual recognition of the commonality of human experience, combined with actual realization and a sense that the person has a strong ability to teach (the rare ideal)
2. A fear that one's practice is selfish in orientation and, therefore, a need to prove to oneself that, in fact, one's practice is about expanding out into wider and wider circles, working with others, etc. The ego trying to feel good about itself.
3. The unconscious, egoic charge that comes from putting oneself in a position of authority--a position that enables the ego to regard itself as enlightened, wise, compassionate, balanced, grounded, together, confident, humble, etc.
4. The misunderstanding that knowledge equals realization. A large number of Western dharma teachers seem to be extremely well-educated and articulate--people who are able to speak off the cuff in extremely precise, often humorous and witty language.
5. The misunderstanding that duration of practice life equals realization. "I've been doing this since the '70s and have done X-number of retreats, therefore I should teach." Well, if you've been sitting there spacing out for decades, then, no, you should not teach. If you've been attaining to paths and making real progress, fine.
6. Adyashanti talks about how we can sit there at a dharma center feeling superior to everybody else. Some people run with this ball--and decide they need to teach.
We have our little sitting group and I have to constantly suppress what I've come to think of as my inner Teacher Guy. I hate that guy. I can tell when I'm actually speaking honestly about my own experience, listening to others and being sincere, and when wretched Teacher Guy is coming out.
Teacher Guy has read a ton and can spit it back out. He needs to shut the hell up!

Okay, I'll admit it: I can't stand most people who put themselves out as "dharma teachers." I like Kenneth, I like Daniel (I'm keeping my eye on Mr. Horn). First, because almost every one of them keeps essential facts from their students and thus are lying, and second, because they always seem to be there for the spiritual authority and ego rush and admiration. A lot of people out there just love "dharma teachers" and give them ridiculous amounts of respect, power, authority. Third, and related to number two, is the way the teacher's attention and actual teaching is held close to the vest and only shared with certain students at certain times based on an unknown criteria that I suspect is based upon group hierarchy and group dynamics.
Chris -- did you ever visit your "local zen center?"

The mushroom culture is closely related to this, of course.
Anybody can teach the basic technique. Anybody can regurgitate the dharma they've read and listened to. If you're not talking about how to make actual progress, what the states and stages are, etc., why not teach? All you have to do is act really peaceful and wise, sit back and receive people's projections.
There are a number of popular dharma teachers who seem realized to me, and a lot of them have something interesting to say. I agree with Chris, though--the more a would-be teacher ruthlessly questions his or her own intentions and ultimate motivations, the better. I would add another key consideration: qualifications!