Stages, Part the Third

Roomy, can you please elaborate on this:

"The result is that we are sane, balanced, responsive-- 'insightful' in the absolutely ordinary sense of the word-- human beings. This is apparent to ourselves and to others who interact with us; and to interject 'issues' about how we define ourselves confuses rather than clarifies things."

"
Roomy, can you please elaborate on this:

"The result is that we are sane, balanced, responsive-- 'insightful' in the absolutely ordinary sense of the word-- human beings. This is apparent to ourselves and to others who interact with us; and to interject 'issues' about how we define ourselves confuses rather than clarifies things."

"

Well-- and I may be wandering onto shaky ground here-- it seems to me that one of the potential confusions when we take up a practice that has only recently been offered in our native language is that we are at the mercy of the translation. We can become too reverential and insist that there are no English equivalents for the Pali, Sanskrit, Tibetan, Chinese, Japanese, Native American, etc.-- and make those original words into technical 'terms of art' with very specific meanings. It is also possible to co-opt an English word [e.g. 'insight'] used to translate those words, in the same way; so that we wind up compartmentalizing 'insight knowledges' from 'insightful observation.' The one is meaningful only to the small circle of people engaged in a particular method; the other connects with ordinary life and at least the reflective people in it.

There is a kind of training stage where the first is useful, but if a practitioner never makes it past that phase, all they've done is create a rationale for the isolation of the expert technician. Which seems unlikely to be the goal of practice.

There is also the obverse error-- to get impatient with finding the translation through study and experience, and debunk all the traditions, assume that there's NO good reason to respect the old ways of doing things, and just modernize and 'improve' them to the satisfaction of the extant cultural models of our time and place. More 'efficient', 'faster', more 'democratic', more 'standardized.'

[cont.] I'm working this out as I write, here, so I hope it's coherent.

What cuts through this Gordian knot of oppositions could be the method of examining all of it with regard to 'principle and function' [or intent and means]-- by all of it, I mean both tradition and 'our' approach that we're hacking out of the uncarved block of our own time and place. So when I encounter-- to use a really loaded example-- injunctions about declaring oneself enlightened, I ask, 'How does that work? Is it really false humility? Or deliberate obfuscation? Could it be useful even if I don't like it?' And when I encounter insistence about making, and backing up, disclosure of one's status, I ask, 'How does that work? Does it really help students find a teacher? Are there 'objective criteria'? What is the connection between the claimed status and my experience of interacting with this person?'

In either case, it is possible to 'observe a lot, just by watching', as the sage Yogi Berra said. [thus endeth my ability to articulate this stuff-- for now, anyway]

That's wonderful stuff, all the more because it provides us with so much food for thought. Thanks for humoring me and my curiosity.

Life-stuff from my practice this morning based on life last night --- when I worry about my daughter I can (a) be worrying as a father who cares about their daughter or (b) as a selfish person trying to avoid getting hurt. I spend more time in worry mode (b) than I care to admit, and when i sat this morning, after a bad night last night, this hit me very hard.

I think that is the kind of insight roomy is talking about.

So now when this worry arises the first question I must ask myself is, "WHO exactly are you worrying about?"

Brilliant stuff Chris! And "who" is worrying, right? Which version of "Chris"?

Jake, yeah, there's definitely that part, too. There is a new version of me that arises almost every few seconds so I'm dealing with tendencies, not permanent entities.

Jeesh, this is so true. No permanent "Nicks", just weird new impermanent versions that don't last. We are but a bundle of ever-changingness. I am experiencing something similar to what you wrote there, Chris. I realise a lot of my decisions can stem from the habitual tendency of self-centredness, even though there realy ain't no self to be centred on. But the difference now is I can see it in all its ugly glory as just a strong habitual tendency. And I can turn it on its head, and aim for being less of the self-centred prick. Something I always wanted to rectify This is where the superpower of "not believing my thoughts" comes in handy. Great discussion!

"
Jake, yeah, there's definitely that part, too. There is a new version of me that arises almost every few seconds so I'm dealing with tendencies, not permanent entities.

"

Right. I'm fascinated by this topic. Would you say that this has always been the case, and "fourth path", or whatever you want to call it, means you can no longer mistake provisional self-referencing, which is all you've ever been doing, for something more "permanent", as you used to? Or what? And how does your new sense of this insight into the provisionality of selfing differ from your pre-4th path sense of this provisionality?

Yeh, the self-referencing still seems to arise as does all the other phenomena, the difference now is that there seems not to be that amazingly addictive and strong tendency of the mind to stick to it and hang on to it, like it was permanent. There isn't much invested in it like before becasue you know it's just liek all other phenomena. That self-referencing is not seen as "all-important" like before, but more in line with how all phenomena arise and pass away.

Now there seems to be no hanging on to it. Maybe for some moments out of a habitual tendency but it is so much easier to just "let go" and let evaporate away. At least in my experience thus far. What seems different now to before, is that now once I realize I am riding a habitual tendency which is considered "unhealthy", it is so natural to just let it go and be and watch it pass away without caring that it passes away. Whereas before it was harder to hop off that habitual tendency without some sort of mental struggle to detach and dis-embed from it. Now it is just "realize and let go". So effortless....so far. I haven't been in any grave situations yet which have tested what i just said to see how easy it could be. But in daily life so far, it's been like this.

Jake, there's nothing different in or about everything that arises now than at any other time in my life, including the self-referencing cloud of sensations and thoughts called "me." The difference is in my relationship to it and the perception of it all as not-self. This not-self perception can be turned on or off at will. It's voluntary, so if I choose to experience life embedded in what Kenneth calls "meat mode" then I can -- and there are times when that's very enjoyable. There are times of stress when the innate and very powerful life-long habit of being in meat mode kicks in automatically. At those times it does require more effort to dis-embed, but it's always possible to do that if I stop for just a brief instant and pay attention.

Again, awakening is not a bliss state. It is not a state at all.

Hope this helps.

"And how does your new sense of this insight into the provisionality of selfing differ from your pre-4th path sense of this provisionality?"

That's a bit more complicated as there were quite a few provisional interpretations of "me" that I've held over time. They differ with stages and even within stages. Maybe it makes the most sense to talk about late 3rd path and whatever transition took place afterward. At late third path I could see the same things going on but held an unstated, innate and not-yet-thoroughly-examined assumption that there was somehow, somewhere, a controlling process or entity. I was actively, at times obsessively, trying to find that entity. Let's just say I had Seeking Disease. The ending of that obsession (not a fruition-based transition but more like a simple recognition (insight) based on a thought or a "blip" of realization) seems to have caused the seeking mind to just stop and the mind to sync up with experience in a way that it becomes obvious that what's in front of your nose is just what's in front of your nose and all experience is on the same level playing field we talked about here a few days ago. There are no processes that control other processes, no privileged processes, no governing "me" process hidden away secretly controlling experience somewhere. It's all just right here, right now.

"
"And how does your new sense of this insight into the provisionality of selfing differ from your pre-4th path sense of this provisionality?"

That's a bit more complicated as there were quite a few provisional interpretations of "me" that I've held over time. They differ with stages and even within stages. Maybe it makes the most sense to talk about late 3rd path and whatever transition took place afterward. At late third path I could see the same things going on but held an unstated, innate and not-yet-thoroughly-examined assumption that there was somehow, somewhere, a controlling process or entity. I was actively, at times obsessively, trying to find that entity. Let's just say I had Seeking Disease. The ending of that obsession (not a fruition-based transition but more like a simple recognition (insight) based on a thought or a "blip" of realization) seems to have caused the seeking mind to just stop and the mind to sync up with experience in a way that it becomes obvious that what's in front of your nose is just what's in front of your nose and all experience is on the same level playing field we talked about here a few days ago. There are no processes that control other processes, no privileged processes, no governing "me" process hidden away secretly controlling experience somewhere. It's all just right here, right now.

"

that is great, thanks

Chris, I'm curious-- when you experience thoughts about planning to do something and then you do them, or when you experience an intention to move your arm right before you move your arm-- what is that like? Is there no sense that "this" (thought, intention) led to "that" (execution of the thought/intention)? Or do you mean something else when you say "there are no processes that control other processes"?

" Let's just say I had Seeking Disease. The ending of that obsession (not a fruition-based transition but more like a simple recognition (insight) based on a thought or a "blip" of realization) seems to have caused the seeking mind to just stop and the mind to sync up with experience in a way that it becomes obvious that what's in front of your nose is just what's in front of your nose and all experience is on the same level playing field we talked about here a few days ago. There are no processes that control other processes, no privileged processes, no governing "me" process hidden away secretly controlling experience somewhere. It's all just right here, right now.

"

To me, what pops into the foreground as extremely significant is this statement that 'insight' is 'a simple recognition.' That is precisely my experience. We keep the 'seeking' game going out of a habituated belief that it CAN'T be that simple and unadorned. Surely all the effort we've put into our practice method is going to pay off in something more impressive than seeing what's in front of us for what it is!!

This simplicity, ordinariness, accessibility-- that's why I think that not making up or using a specialist jargon about practice methods is really important. The language can either help you understand, or it can add to your confusion and prolong the suffering. And, as the old texts say-- life is short at best...

Very nice, thanks guys. It helps to have this reinforced by people whose understanding I trust.

It's kind of funny how simple liberating insight is, compared to all the many states and stages we can experience.

It really feels to me like "insight disease" just unearths and makes acute the same suffering that characterizes "ordinary folks" who don't practice. It (seeking disease) seems so futile and painful in comparison to just being simply with what is, as it is- at least for me right now.

"Chris, I'm curious-- when you experience thoughts about planning to do something and then you do them, or when you experience an intention to move your arm right before you move your arm-- what is that like? Is there no sense that "this" (thought, intention) led to "that" (execution of the thought/intention)? Or do you mean something else when you say "there are no processes that control other processes"?"

Brian, my experience of things like moving and such are exactly as they always were. Otherwise I'd look like the Scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz when I move. The "controlling processes that aren't" refers primarily to the mental selfing processes we've been talking about. There is no sense that some entity or thing is pulling the strings in the background of decision making, referencing self, observing other things going on, and so forth.

"Again, awakening is not a bliss state. It is not a state at all."--

Another crucial point! Having done as thorough a review of 'awakening stories' as I can, this understanding is the commonality and the heart of the matter: awakening can seem blissful, or horrific, or hilarious, or outrageous-- but underneath these qualities, there is that peculiar certainty.
Awake in heaven, awake in hell-- no ESSENTIAL difference. The light of intelligence in your beloved child's eyes or in unexpected generosity in the last place you'd have looked for it-- the same 'simplest thing.'

Absolutely beautiful!! Thanks!

Nyingje

"
Awakening is not a state, folks. Do not be fooled into thinking it is. Nor does awakening change a person's underlying personality. The tendencies you had going in will be the tendencies you have going forward. When you have sad things happen you will be sad. When you have happy things happen, you will be happy. When you have terrifying things happen, you will be terrified. You can fall asleep in the dentist's chair - and I've actually done that , too - but I sure as hell wouldn't ask them to fill a cavity without novocaine because.... when painful things happen you will feel pain.

In the interest of accuracy.



"

Hello Chris,

I have been following your posts and want to say a huge thanks!!!! I wish soo many people could read this. I constantly get questions about this. This doesn't get any simpler. I humbly thank you! You are a great teacher.

Thanks,
Nyingje

"Hello Chris,

I have been following your posts and want to say a huge thanks!!!! I wish soo many people could read this. I constantly get questions about this. This doesn't get any simpler. I humbly thank you! You are a great teacher.

Thanks,
Nyingje"

Uh-oh, Chris--
BUSTED!
[and here we neatly see that there is the 'teacher' who aspires to the position and the one who simply walks the walk; in the best-case scenario, they are one and the same. But not every scenario is for the best...]

i have no doubt chris teaches in one way or another all the time

"i have no doubt chris teaches in one way or another all the time"

exactly

"BUSTED!"

Oh, snap.